What difference does it make?

[America]

Was it a team game in 2005 when TT signed sh*t, there were multiple injuries, and the Packers were a joke...or was it ALL FAVRE's fault..

You've thrown a lot of stuff at the wall hoping something would stick. I'll address these one at a time.

The 2005 season saw us within a TD of tying or taking the lead in the 4th quarter over and over and Favre throwing back-breaking interceptions. He was probably the single biggest reason we finished 4-12 instead of 8-8. Even Mike Holmgren commented that somebody needs to tell Favre to quit throwing the ball around like that.

The defenses during Sherman's tenure simply weren't as bad as you seem to believe. Only in 2004 did we finish in the bottom half both in scoring and yardage. In every other season we were better than average in scoring, yardage, or both.

We finished in the top half of the league in scoring defense 4 times and in total defense 4 times. The only clearly below average defense was the 2004 defense. In addition to a defense that was generally average at worst the Packers enjoyed one of the finest lines in their history during this stretch and a number of Pro Bowlers at the skill positions.

In addition, we played in a very weak division during the Sherman years. Detroit, of course, was bad every year but the Vikings and Bears also fielded some weak teams during those years.

So all of those things contributed to us "making the playoffs" every bit as much as any magic that you seem to think Favre had. In fact, from October of 2001 to September of 2007, Favre didn't lead a single come-from-behind 4th quarter touchdown drive. Not one. That's a span of almost 100 games.

Rodgers perhaps did hold the ball a little too long at times last year but I think you can expect that from a guy in his first year as a starter. It's eminently more understandable...and preferable....to a future HOFer simply tossing the ball up for grabs.

You simply give Favre way too much credit. From 2000-2007 he was largely an average QB on an above average team. Just as the very good cast around him made him look better than he was in 2004, for example, in 2005 a weaker cast made him look worse.

From 2000-2007 his turnover to TD ratio is pretty darn close to 1:1. That's nothing spectacular. His passer rating during that time was around 85 with three seasons under 80.

That's not legendary, that's average. And despite all your rhetoric, during the last several years of Favre's tenure in Green Bay he was an average QB who was better than average at throwing TD passes and worse than average at protecting the ball.

 

[Hauschild]

According to the Football Scientist, KC Joyner, over the last three years (2006-2008 ) Favre is the 5th worst QB in the NFL at throwing downfield (throws of 11 yards or more). Note that this time span does not cover his horrendous 2005 season but does include his 2007 renaissance season.

He's old, he can't possibly be in his best possible shape, he's coming off surgery, he led the league in picks last year, and he's one of the worst downfield passers in the league.

I'm really looking forward to the epic failiure that is about to occur.

Wow - that's a helluva lotta hate to be harboring.

Me? I'm looking forward to watching Brett play another year because he brings a tremendous amount of excitement - that would otherwise be lacking - to the NFL.

 

[pbateman]

Wow - that's a helluva lotta hate to be harboring.

Me? I'm looking forward to watching Brett play another year because he brings a tremendous amount of excitement - that would otherwise be lacking - to the NFL.

I'm with you. Unfortunately, there are just a bunch of Favre haters in this forum who forgot what it was like before Brett and Reggie White restored some credibility to the franchise. Eventually they'll understand Brett's positive impact on the franchise because Aaron Rodgers is never winning a Super Bowl. Just ask the 23 NFL general managers who passed on drafting him.

 

[America]

Wow - that's a helluva lotta hate to be harboring.

Me? I'm looking forward to watching Brett play another year because he brings a tremendous amount of excitement - that would otherwise be lacking - to the NFL.

No hate at all. Just an unemotional look at the facts. And personally, I think the NFL had lots of excitement before Favre, lots of excitement besides Favre, and will have lots of excitement after him. Gale Sayers was exciting. OJ. Earl Campbell. Joe Montana. Billy "White Shoes" Johnson. LaDanian Tomlinson.

I don't think the NFL lacks for excitement at all.

 

[pbateman]

No hate at all. Just an unemotional look at the facts. And personally, I think the NFL had lots of excitement before Favre, lots of excitement besides Favre, and will have lots of excitement after him. Gale Sayers was exciting. OJ. Earl Campbell. Joe Montana. Billy "White Shoes" Johnson. LaDanian Tomlinson.

I don't think the NFL lacks for excitement at all.

If you want to make a case that the NFL has some excitement aside from Favre (which I happen to agree with you on) how about naming some players who are actually playing and not retired or in jail??? Might help strengthen your argument.

 

[danielchile]

I'm with you. Unfortunately, there are just a bunch of Favre haters in this forum who forgot what it was like before Brett and Reggie White restored some credibility to the franchise. Eventually they'll understand Brett's positive impact on the franchise because Aaron Rodgers is never winning a Super Bowl. Just ask the 23 NFL general managers who passed on drafting him.

Montana was a third round pick...Brady was a sixth round pick. A lot of GMs passed on them a lot of times. Yet they got 7 SBs rings together.

The Browns picked up Tim Couch with the overall pick in 99 and we know what happened.

Saying that Rodgers isn't going to win a SB just because he was the 24th overall it's just nonsense.

 

[pbateman]

Montana was a third round pick...Brady was a sixth round pick. A lot of GMs passed on them a lot of times. Yet they got 7 SBs rings together.

The Browns picked up Tim Couch with the overall pick in 99 and we know what happened.

Saying that Rodgers isn't going to win a SB just because he was the 24th overall it's just nonsense.

Nonsense is comparing Aaron Rodgers to Joe Montana and Tom Brady. Good luck with that...

 

[danielchile]

You said "Just ask the 23 NFL general managers who passed on drafting him." You are trying to say that a player (ANY player) won't be a Super Bowl winning player just because some GMs passed on them. THAT'S nonsense.

 

[danielchile]

Alex Smith was the 1st overall in that draft and he has been nothing but a bust for the 9ers.

 

[pbateman]

You said "Just ask the 23 NFL general managers who passed on drafting him." You are trying to say that a player (ANY player) won't be a Super Bowl winning player just because some GMs passed on them. THAT'S nonsense.

I guess I should have clarified my comments for the mentally challenged. Rodgers will never win a Super Bowl because he's just not that good. Coming out of college he had a reputation as brittle, thin-skinned, somewhat of a soft player and not a great leader. I follow USC closely, so by default I follow the lame players on Cal and UCLA, so I know a bit about your golden boy. Clearly, many other GM's saw the same limitations, but regardless, forget about his draft position, in the end, he's just not a complete player. Clear enough for you???

 

[danielchile]

FDP, I never treated you like a jerk to be treated that way.

"Rodgers will never win a Super Bowl because he's just not that good." "he's just not a complete player."

Well then, Trent Dilfer must have been a complete QB because he won a ******* SB. Dan Marino? Yeah, that guy was a fluke, he never won a SB. Well..maybe, just maybe, a qb doesn't need to be complete, to be great, to win a SB. Just maybe.

It was you, with your great wisdom that proclaimed that 23 GMs passed on Rodgers so that's the reason he isn't going to win a SB. Brady was skinnier than Rodgers, was a backup for Brian Griese and a sith round pick. Nobody thought that he could develop to a 3 time SB champ, 2 time SB MVP. Yet, it happenned.

The great thing about the NFL is that anyone has a chance to win the SB. Of course, some have way more chance than others.

I like the way Rodgers has grown up. "He is injury-prone" and he played all 16 games last year with a separated shoulder. "He has no lidership" yet everyone proclaims that "it's Rodgers Team" now.

 

[longtimefan]

I think you are wrong here about Moss, although there are many conflicting stories about what happened. A number of NFL experts reported that Brett and Moss did in fact speak and that when Brett approached TT about getting Moss, TT was annoyed and said no. This was enough for Brett to get frustrated and think about moving on from the team. Like I said, there are conflicting stories about exactly what happened, but you can't say definitively that TT was all set to acquire Moss.

I can say DEFINITIVELY they were set to acquire him

I don't feel they wanted me - JSOnline

The Packers reached a tentative agreement with the Oakland Raiders to send a fifth-round draft choice for Moss and were given permission to negotiate a new contract with him

On the Friday before the draft, Moss' agent arranged for his client to speak to coach Mike McCarthy on the telephone.
Moss didn't like what he heard.

Asked what he considered the "wrong things" the Packers were talking about, Moss said, "It was like they were telling me that they're going to take a chance on me, but if you do come here these are the things you have to work out: 'Be on your best behavior; Donald Driver is the top receiver here so don't come in there trying to step on his toes.' Things like that.



Contrary to reports that Favre had spoken to Moss in an attempt to recruit him, Moss said he and Favre never talked. After reportedly talking to quarterback Tom Brady several times, Moss became convinced he had found the right team.

http://www.nfljuice.com/2008/07/15/favres-3-disappointments/Brett asked Ted and also said he would lower his money to get Randy there..

To reporters Ted said that Brett didnt lobby for Randy

Looking back on it now, right Or wrong I bet that is just Teds way of keeping talks between him and players private

 

[longtimefan]

I guess I should have clarified my comments for the mentally challenged.

No need for that

 

[pbateman]

FDP, I never treated you like a jerk to be treated that way.

"Rodgers will never win a Super Bowl because he's just not that good." "he's just not a complete player."

Well then, Trent Dilfer must have been a complete QB because he won a ******* SB. Dan Marino? Yeah, that guy was a fluke, he never won a SB. Well..maybe, just maybe, a qb doesn't need to be complete, to be great, to win a SB. Just maybe.

It was you, with your great wisdom that proclaimed that 23 GMs passed on Rodgers so that's the reason he isn't going to win a SB. Brady was skinnier than Rodgers, was a backup for Brian Griese and a sith round pick. Nobody thought that he could develop to a 3 time SB champ, 2 time SB MVP. Yet, it happenned.

The great thing about the NFL is that anyone has a chance to win the SB. Of course, some have way more chance than others.

I like the way Rodgers has grown up. "He is injury-prone" and he played all 16 games last year with a separated shoulder. "He has no lidership" yet everyone proclaims that "it's Rodgers Team" now.

Well since you've pinned your Super Bowl hopes on such a soft player, it's going to be a long wait. Good luck with that and do yourself a favor and STOP comparing him to players like Tom Brady...makes you sound even more clueless than you already are.

 

[pbateman]

I can say DEFINITIVELY they were set to acquire him

I don't feel they wanted me - JSOnline




http://www.nfljuice.com/2008/07/15/favres-3-disappointments/Brett asked Ted and also said he would lower his money to get Randy there..

To reporters Ted said that Brett didnt lobby for Randy

Looking back on it now, right Or wrong I bet that is just Teds way of keeping talks between him and players private

So basically Moss was all set to become a Packer until he spoke with fat-head MM? Quite the recruiter he is...

 

[ThinkICare]

pbateman, in the 6th page of this thread you reiterated what you said, so I don't understand how you changed it up at all. You just went on criticizing Rodgers because you happened to see a few Cal games with him at QB. You make it seem as though, QB's can't improve at all or work on what they were bad at. A huge thing I remember why people were critical of Rodgers was because of his throwing motion. He clearly fixed that if you watch his college footage to last years packers footage. Another thing probably GMs were worried about was the fact that it was a Cal prospect. They're known for having system quarterbacks that don't translate to the nfl. Those two things are understandable, but the Pack got him because he fell right into their lap and they were right to pick him up. I'm not comparing Rodgers to Brady or Montana at all, but why do you think GM's passed on them? Is it this so called softness you keep talking about. You didn't explain at all why gm's passed on great qb's and were only taken in much later rounds. I would just like to know.

 

[longtimefan]

Well since you've pinned your Super Bowl hopes on such a soft player, it's going to be a long wait. Good luck with that and do yourself a favor and STOP comparing him to players like Tom Brady...makes you sound even more clueless than you already are.

And he is clueless??

He is not comparing Brady in talent wise to Rodgers

He is comparing Brady to Rodgers on him slipping in the draft


But I suspect you knew that just trying to make him look bad??

 

[PackersRS]

I guess I should have clarified my comments for the mentally challenged.

WTF!!! Any mods here? I've been personally offended by this guy a number of times. Even never having directed any words to him. Now he's offended another posters. LT, Robdog, If this continue, I'm gonna quit and go to a place that I don't have to see an offense every post I read... This is not the Smack area...
-
And this has nothing to do with supporting Favre or TT. Mike Bat has allways supported Favre in this Forum, and he has never offended anybody. Doughsellz has complained against TT from the beggining and has never offended anybody.

 

[D.Levens]

I guess I should have clarified my comments for the mentally challenged. Rodgers will never win a Super Bowl because he's just not that good. Coming out of college he had a reputation as brittle, thin-skinned, somewhat of a soft player and not a great leader. I follow USC closely, so by default I follow the lame players on Cal and UCLA, so I know a bit about your golden boy. Clearly, many other GM's saw the same limitations, but regardless, forget about his draft position, in the end, he's just not a complete player. Clear enough for you???

He holds on to the ball too long, isn't great at reading defenses, and gets happy feet to quickly..

He also doesn't seem to "have it" in the respect of coming from behind to will a win for the team. He seems more like a game manager or a system QB to me...

 

[mike bat]

im not sure why you guys wanna dig at Rodgers ... Rodgers isnt the issue in green bay ... he looked great last game ,, good the first game ... and im betting he will have a great year regaurdless of how the team fairs ... the olny thing anyone could say about Rodgers so far that id have to agree with ,, he just hasnt been battle tested yet ... in 3 more seasons if he is still here playing at a high level then id say he is battle tested ... other than that i will say rodgers needs to get more confidence in the pocket ,,, he needs to pump fake more ,,, and needs to send that ball deeper down the field .... my geuss is MM has Rodgers on a short leach at this point .. so im betting with in the next few seasons mm will allow Rodgers to drop back and send that ball down the field ... in time Rodgers could be a great qb ,,, as of now he is one of the top QBs in the leauge ...
if you have a problem with number 4 and the queens that is fine ,, i dont wanna change anyones mind ... but our QB seems to be off to a fine start so i dont see any need to bash him ...

 

[longtimefan]

WTF!!! Any mods here? I've been personally offended by this guy a number of times. Even never having directed any words to him. Now he's offended another posters. LT, Robdog, If this continue, I'm gonna quit and go to a place that I don't have to see an offense every post I read... This is not the Smack area...
-
And this has nothing to do with supporting Favre or TT. Mike Bat has allways supported Favre in this Forum, and he has never offended anybody. Doughsellz has complained against TT from the beggining and has never offended anybody.

It was discussed last night..and it is in the works..

My last few posts have told people certain things are not necessary

 

[skibum55]

Ok..I'll spell it out for you since you're not getting it..

Was it a team game in 2005 when TT signed sh*t, there were multiple injuries, and the Packers were a joke...or was it ALL FAVRE's fault..which is what you seem to be implying. Even if you look at that season, the Packers were in every game just about even though Favre had crap to work with...same goes for 2006.

How many game ending interceptions did Rodgers throw last year...3..4? How about the fact that Rodgers held onto the ball too long and wasn't very adept at reading defenses...or was that lost on you because his name wasn't Favre?

It is well known that Sherman's teams had crappy defenses...yet Favre got the Packers to the playoffs year in and year out. How do you explain that? I know what you're going to say, and it's not true...

I love how you guy's rationalize 14-3 as an anomaly..but want to stick the crappy Sherman, TT years on Favre...

hahaha

Since you are so keen in pointing out the disaster that was 2005, and this being a "team" game here are some statistics for you (as seen in Cold, Hard Football Facts.com: A northern saga):

"Here's a breakdown of eight games in that terrible 2005 season in which Favre was largely responsible for Green Bay's losses. And don't think these were incidents isolated to the 2005 season. Take a look here at Favre's big-game track record of the past decade.

Week 3 2005 – Tampa 17, Green Bay 16
The Packers took over the ball with 5:52 to play in the fourth quarter at the 50 yard line. They were in prime position to gain a first down or two and kick a game-winning field goal. Instead, after picking up 2 yards, the gunslinger threw deep toward the end zone and his pass was picked off by safety Will Allen at the 5 and returned 26 yards. The Bucs ran out the clock and won the game.

Week 4 – Carolina 32, Green Bay 29
The Packers took over at their own 37 with 1:50 to play, and Favre quickly completed a 15-yard pass to Donald Driver. Green Bay was now at the Carolina 48, and just 15 to 20 yards or so from a decent shot at a game-tying field goal. But Favre completed just 1 of 4 passes for 7 yards on the final series, and the Pack turned the ball over on downs, without getting a shot at a field goal.

Week 7 – Minnesota 23, Green Bay 20
The talentless Packers raced out to a 17-0 first-half lead. But Favre and the offense went in the tank faster than Patton’s 3rd Army turning north toward Bastogne, allowing the Vikings to pull out a last-second 23-20 victory.

Week 8 – Cincinnati 21, Green Bay 14
Brett Favre pulls off a miracle even by his standards – throwing five interceptions in the final 32 minutes of the game, including picks on four straight possessions in the second half, hijacking any hopes his team had of besting the Bengals.

Week 11 – Minnesota 20, Green Bay 17
Brett Favre throws two picks as the Packers again fall to the Vikings on a last-second field goal. The first INT was returned by Dovonte Edwards 51 yards for a Vikings touchdown. The second was picked off by Brian Williams at the Minnesota 29, ending another Packers scoring chance.

Week 12 – Philadelphia 19, Green Bay 14
The Packers trail 10-7 in the first half, but move into goal range at the Philly 31 when Favre – with his classic reckless gunslinger move – throws a long pass into the end zone that’s picked off by Michael Lewis

The Packers still have a chance to win in the final two minutes of the fourth quarter when Favre throws not one but TWO picks on the same drive: the first was overturned by a roughing the passer penalty with 1:39 to play that put the ball at the Green Bay 44 – prime position for Favre to lead a heroic comeback. But just 40 seconds later, on 2nd and 15, the gunslinger once again fired recklessly into the end zone. Favre’s long pass was picked off by Roderick Hood. Game over

Week 13 – Chicago 19, Green Bay 7
On a day in which the Bears offense simply could not move the football (190 yards vs. 358 for Green Bay), Favre still managed to find a way to lose.

His first INT was returned 95 yards by Charles Tillman, setting up a Chicago field goal. Then in the fourth quarter, with the Packers trailing just 12-7 and driving for a game-winning score, Favre threw a pick that was returned 45 yards for a touchdown by Nathan Vasher. Game over.

The most insightful post-game commentary came from Tillman: “It’s kind of hit or miss with Brett Favre.” No sh*t, Tillman.

Week 16 – Chicago 24, Green Bay 17
Favre throws four picks in the Chicago rematch, handing the Bears their first season sweep of the series in 14 years.

Chicago’s final points, the difference in the game, came off of one of those picks, thanks to a 10-yard return for a TD by linebacker Lance Briggs. "

 

[skibum55]

I'm with you. Unfortunately, there are just a bunch of Favre haters in this forum who forgot what it was like before Brett and Reggie White restored some credibility to the franchise. Eventually they'll understand Brett's positive impact on the franchise because Aaron Rodgers is never winning a Super Bowl. Just ask the 23 NFL general managers who passed on drafting him.

This may not be the proper places to bring this argument up, but what about all those NFL general managers that originally passed on a certain T. Brady...I am positive he wasn't the first pick of the draft, and I think he's won a Super Bowl (or three).

 

[D.Levens]

Since you are so keen in pointing out the disaster that was 2005, and this being a "team" game here are some statistics for you (as seen in Cold, Hard Football Facts.com: A northern saga):

"Here's a breakdown of eight games in that terrible 2005 season in which Favre was largely responsible for Green Bay's losses. And don't think these were incidents isolated to the 2005 season. Take a look here at Favre's big-game track record of the past decade.

Week 3 2005 – Tampa 17, Green Bay 16
The Packers took over the ball with 5:52 to play in the fourth quarter at the 50 yard line. They were in prime position to gain a first down or two and kick a game-winning field goal. Instead, after picking up 2 yards, the gunslinger threw deep toward the end zone and his pass was picked off by safety Will Allen at the 5 and returned 26 yards. The Bucs ran out the clock and won the game.

Week 4 – Carolina 32, Green Bay 29
The Packers took over at their own 37 with 1:50 to play, and Favre quickly completed a 15-yard pass to Donald Driver. Green Bay was now at the Carolina 48, and just 15 to 20 yards or so from a decent shot at a game-tying field goal. But Favre completed just 1 of 4 passes for 7 yards on the final series, and the Pack turned the ball over on downs, without getting a shot at a field goal.

Week 7 – Minnesota 23, Green Bay 20
The talentless Packers raced out to a 17-0 first-half lead. But Favre and the offense went in the tank faster than Patton’s 3rd Army turning north toward Bastogne, allowing the Vikings to pull out a last-second 23-20 victory.

Week 8 – Cincinnati 21, Green Bay 14
Brett Favre pulls off a miracle even by his standards – throwing five interceptions in the final 32 minutes of the game, including picks on four straight possessions in the second half, hijacking any hopes his team had of besting the Bengals.

Week 11 – Minnesota 20, Green Bay 17
Brett Favre throws two picks as the Packers again fall to the Vikings on a last-second field goal. The first INT was returned by Dovonte Edwards 51 yards for a Vikings touchdown. The second was picked off by Brian Williams at the Minnesota 29, ending another Packers scoring chance.

Week 12 – Philadelphia 19, Green Bay 14
The Packers trail 10-7 in the first half, but move into goal range at the Philly 31 when Favre – with his classic reckless gunslinger move – throws a long pass into the end zone that’s picked off by Michael Lewis

The Packers still have a chance to win in the final two minutes of the fourth quarter when Favre throws not one but TWO picks on the same drive: the first was overturned by a roughing the passer penalty with 1:39 to play that put the ball at the Green Bay 44 – prime position for Favre to lead a heroic comeback. But just 40 seconds later, on 2nd and 15, the gunslinger once again fired recklessly into the end zone. Favre’s long pass was picked off by Roderick Hood. Game over

Week 13 – Chicago 19, Green Bay 7
On a day in which the Bears offense simply could not move the football (190 yards vs. 358 for Green Bay), Favre still managed to find a way to lose.

His first INT was returned 95 yards by Charles Tillman, setting up a Chicago field goal. Then in the fourth quarter, with the Packers trailing just 12-7 and driving for a game-winning score, Favre threw a pick that was returned 45 yards for a touchdown by Nathan Vasher. Game over.

The most insightful post-game commentary came from Tillman: “It’s kind of hit or miss with Brett Favre.” No sh*t, Tillman.

Week 16 – Chicago 24, Green Bay 17
Favre throws four picks in the Chicago rematch, handing the Bears their first season sweep of the series in 14 years.

Chicago’s final points, the difference in the game, came off of one of those picks, thanks to a 10-yard return for a TD by linebacker Lance Briggs. "

Tell me...What does the website, "Cold Hard Crap" say about who the starting WR's and the O-Line for the Packers were for those games...???

:lol

 

[America]

So let me get this straight Levens...

Are you saying that the team we had in 2005 made Favre look worse than he was?

If so, are you willing to admit then that when we had good teams it made him look better than he was? Or is this just a one-way street?

I'll say this: I have seen lots of bad quarterbacks with bad teams around them. The Bucs of the mid 70s, the Cowboys of 1989, the Packers of 1980. But I'd never seen a guy throw 29 picks in a season until Favre did it.

He gave up on the team that year and just said "What the hell" and threw it.....to the detriment of the team. There's no way that a guy with Favre's skill needs to throw that many bad picks in the 4th quarter of close games.....he just didn't care.