The argument for improving the linebackers

HyponGrey

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I would love it if the defensive line in next year's Super Bowl was Datone Jones, Josh Boyd and Mike Daniels all playing at a high level.
And where exactly does Datone play in your fantasy? Third base? Because Daniels locks the RDE, and Datone was useless against the run.
 

paulska

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I think we're in a spot where we don't have great personnel for the front we're running. Our talent on D is not top flight across the board. We have some names, to be sure (CM3 is a stud for anyone, then Tramon and Sam are better than average starters at CB, Hayward has to be one of the top nickel CBs, maybe Burnett is above average at safety), but beyond them, the talent is middling.

We have some young talent on the D Line that is unproven. Jerel Worthy might be a guy who is situational gold, seeing as we play nickel way more than we do our base scheme. Datone Jones appears to be able to put on some weight to be a long term fixture at DE in our base and still be able to give some pop in the nickel.

The rest of our D roster? Doesn't inspire fear in opponents or confidence in our DC. We're dumbing down things rather than playing full out, confuse the hell out of opponents zone blitz magic regardless of who is on the field, and it kind of reminds me of what happened at the end of the Bates/Sanders bend don't break 4-3 era when teams had a clear bead on what we were going to do, and they just schemed to beat it.

Frankly, I don't care whether we draft a hulk at 21 who can run to anchor the DL or some freak to set off the edge opposite CM3, or perhaps replace him. CM3 is great, but he spends a lot of time on the trainer's table. If you could catch lightning in a bottle to get close to similar production, he'd bring a huge windfall in return.

I haven't seen Dom call a go for the throat game in forever because of injuries. Our scheme is complex, and operates best when you've got your major pieces in order. It's been three years since that's happened, and the scheme isn't getting the results it once did.

Our problem is that the likelihood that you catch a player like JJ Watt or Von Miller where we're drafting is slim to none. What elite young pass rusher has come out of the draft past the early phases lately? Aldon Smith was a top 10 guy, and he might be the most dangerous man off the edge in the league now.

I think coaching is a huge issue. Aside from a secondary that brought along CBs to replace Charles Woodson and Al Harris, we're not developing players to play elite football anywhere else. You can argue that the raw material is lacking, but neither Sam Shields nor Tramon were considered elite talents by anyone. They both have elevated their games through development. Gotta see that same leap from the young talent along the DL, and hopefully a change at OLB coach now that Greene is gone lights some serious fire under those guys...
 

TJV

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I'm not "against it". I'm against it, or safety, being the highest draft priority. And there you went...diving in at LB in the first round which is precisely my point. Wasn't it safety last week?
I consider safety the biggest weakness on D but I recognize Thompson shouldn't - and won't - reach for safety even if he shares the opinion safety is the biggest need. I still would like to see a UFA safety signed because Capers' D requires vets and IMO safety is one of the positions in greatest need of experience.

And of course holes can be filled beyond the first round. Collins is an obvious example. And DL is the spot in which experience in Capers' D is least important IMO: Boyd contributed as a late 5th round pick.

BTW, "there you went ... diving in at" DL when you have no idea which UFA vets on the DL will return.
 

AmishMafia

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I consider safety the biggest weakness on D but I recognize Thompson shouldn't - and won't - reach for safety even if he shares the opinion safety is the biggest need. I still would like to see a UFA safety signed because Capers' D requires vets and IMO safety is one of the positions in greatest need of experience.

And of course holes can be filled beyond the first round. Collins is an obvious example. And DL is the spot in which experience in Capers' D is least important IMO: Boyd contributed as a late 5th round pick.

BTW, "there you went ... diving in at" DL when you have no idea which UFA vets on the DL will return.
I hope Clinton-Dix is there at 21. If not him, then the MLB Mosley. Outside of those two, I'm not sure there will be anyone who will immediately have an impact on the D. Players like Hageman, Van Noy, Tuitt, would probably help, but provide little impact in their rookie seasons. TT is good, but can we expect a third year in a row of a late round gem who impacts as a rookie?

More likely, as your example of Collins - it took several seasons before he was something more than average. And that is what we can probably expect for most rookies.
 
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I like Mosely, but wouldn't mind Jeramiah Attouchu from Georgia Tech at LOLB in the first. Looks like he has great quickness and power and brings some good rush.

Attaochu won't be drafted before the third round and IMO isn't a good fit at 3-4 LOLB.
 
D

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Frankly, I don't care whether we draft a hulk at 21 who can run to anchor the DL or some freak to set off the edge opposite CM3, or perhaps replace him. CM3 is great, but he spends a lot of time on the trainer's table. If you could catch lightning in a bottle to get close to similar production, he'd bring a huge windfall in return.

That would result in $16,4 million of dead money, not going to happen.

BTW Burnett is only paid like an above average safety, he doesn't play like one though.
 
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HardRightEdge

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BTW, "there you went ... diving in at" DL when you have no idea which UFA vets on the DL will return.

I have a pretty good idea, and you should too, that the numbers game with the DL FAs is not good and that the remaining players will be mostly (if not all) rotational or unproven players.

So, the implication is that until we know which DL FAs go unsigned you'll assume for now they'll all be signed, or something like that. That's a reactive, not a predictive stance. Yet there is no reluctance to predict draft choices?

There's one fact that hasn't been mentioned, but lets make sure it does not get overlooked: Any combination of Boyd, Daniels, D. Jones or Worthy (and lets throw Wilson into the bargain) would be the smallest 3-4 D-Line in the league...by a wide margin (pun intended). And they will be coupled with a back 8 not known for physicality.

I wouldn't be surprised if TT doesn't even wait for the draft...he'll be talking to FAs not named Raji or Jolly with starter bona fides.

The D-line object in base D is not to take up blockers. Anybody can do that; just let yourself get blocked. The object is to clog running lanes, get an arm on the runner, and actually tackle the back a certain percentage of the time. And if the opponent actually decides to pass against the base (how did that happen?!), these guys have to bull through the trash and at least squeeze the pocket. There's a reason 290 lb. guys don't play base DE.
 
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ExpatPacker

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Ra'shede Hageman, whom many prognosticators had us picking in round 1, was pretty disappointing at the SB from what I gather. It doesn't leave the Packers many options for an impact player at DT.

I was thinking maybe McCullers in the later rounds, but that's until I read that he was simply awful at the SB. Unless TT can find a diamond in the rough, I don't see a lot of help on the DL coming from the draft. Here's hoping that Jolly returns.

If CJMosley fell to the Packers at 21 it's a no-brainer to take him IMO, but I don't see him falling that far.
 

rodell330

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Fact of the matter fellas is that this will be another draft primarily focused on that sorry defense. We are probably going to see 3 defensive linemen, 3 db's, and 2 or 3 lb's taken by TT in this draft.
 
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HardRightEdge

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Ra'shede Hageman, whom many prognosticators had us picking in round 1, was pretty disappointing at the SB from what I gather. It doesn't leave the Packers many options for an impact player at DT.

I was thinking maybe McCullers in the later rounds, but that's until I read that he was simply awful at the SB. Unless TT can find a diamond in the rough, I don't see a lot of help on the DL coming from the draft. Here's hoping that Jolly returns.

If CJMosley fell to the Packers at 21 it's a no-brainer to take him IMO, but I don't see him falling that far.
Hageman's Senior Bowl week wasn't all that bad. Here's Rob Rang's take:

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=90219&draftyear=2014&genpos=DT

NFLDS did downgrade him, though, from a solid first round pick to 1-2. Nonetheless, Rang still has him with us at #21, I believe updated since the Senior Bowl. He does get high at times and lose leverage (that pesky "pad level" ;)) and he's a bit stiff in the hips. On the other hand, he's strong, a battler, and he's got a motor...attributes lacking in the incumbents excepting Daniels. Hageman's got room for improvement, but he's probably not #21 material.

But that's all beside the point. I think you just said that once we get to #21 there will be nobody left in this draft who can help us at D-Line. That's far fetched.

I just did a quick look see at about 1/2 dozen mocks...NBC, NFL.com, SBnation, a few others...the name that comes up most frequently for #21 is Nix. It would appear once the underclassmen announced, Nix dropped.
 
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Sunshinepacker

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And where exactly does Datone play in your fantasy? Third base? Because Daniels locks the RDE, and Datone was useless against the run.

He was a ROOKIE. Rookie dlinemen RARELY play well in their first year. Calais Campbell wasn't very good his rookie year. Now he's a top-five 3-4 dlineman in the NFL. Give the guy a year to figure things out...
 

TJV

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So, the implication is that until we know which DL FAs go unsigned you'll assume for now they'll all be signed, or something like that. That's a reactive, not a predictive stance. Yet there is no reluctance to predict draft choices?
First, my “prediction” for a draft choice was if a particular player were the highest rated player on Thompson’s board, he’ll take him at 21. So no, there’s no reluctance on my part to post the obvious. Second while you object to my suggestion which DL are re-signed affects the position’s draft priority, you post don’t be surprised if Thompson signs a UFA DL. That too obviously will affect the position’s draft priority.

The bottom line is you think DL is the #1 priority and I think safety is. Both need to be addressed and they could also use another play making LB.
 
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HardRightEdge

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First, my “prediction” for a draft choice was if a particular player were the highest rated player on Thompson’s board, he’ll take him at 21.

I predict that if Thompson picks a particular player then he will, in fact, have picked him.
 

ExpatPacker

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Hageman's Senior Bowl week wasn't all that bad. Here's Rob Rang's take:

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=90219&draftyear=2014&genpos=DT

NFLDS did downgrade him, though, from a solid first round pick to 1-2. Nonetheless, Rang still has him with us at #21, I believe updated since the Senior Bowl. He does get high at times and lose leverage (that pesky "pad level" ;)) and he's a bit stiff in the hips. On the other hand, he's strong, a battler, and he's got a motor...attributes lacking in the incumbents excepting Daniels. Hageman's got room for improvement, but he's probably not #21 material.

But that's all beside the point. I think you just said that once we get to #21 there will be nobody left in this draft who can help us at D-Line. That's far fetched.

I just did a quick look see at about 1/2 dozen mocks...NBC, NFL.com, SBnation, a few others...the name that comes up most frequently for #21 is Nix. It would appear once the underclassmen announced, Nix dropped.

Nix *might* be on the board at #21, but he's still the top rated DT. Everyone else above him is a DE.

Honestly, if any of these guys are there at #21 and TT picked them, I'd be happy: Nix, Clinton-Dix, Calvin Pryor, CJMosley, Ebron. Those are all sure-thing snatch-you-ups except maybe for Pryor. Getting Nix in round 1 and a S like Jimmie Ward (very unlikely) or Deonne Bucannon in round 2...That'd be pretty sweet in my book.
 
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HyponGrey

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So you're saying the Packers should cut their losses and release him?
I'm typing this slowly because from this quoted post I know you're a bit slow on the uptake. I just don't believe he's a LDE, or that we drafted him for his ability to play the run. Besides, if we were to get rid of him I'd say "recoup our losses" and try to trade him; might get a 6th out of it.
 

NelsonsLongCatch

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I'm typing this slowly because from this quoted post I know you're a bit slow on the uptake. I just don't believe he's a LDE, or that we drafted him for his ability to play the run. Besides, if we were to get rid of him I'd say "recoup our losses" and try to trade him; might get a 6th out of it.

Well I'm writing this even slower... What should the Packers do with Jones then?
 

raj34

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Nix *might* be on the board at #21, but he's still the top rated DT. Everyone else above him is a DE.

Honestly, if any of these guys are there at #21 and TT picked them, I'd be happy: Nix, Clinton-Dix, Calvin Pryor, CJMosley, Ebron. Those are all sure-thing snatch-you-ups except maybe for Pryor. Getting Nix in round 1 and a S like Jimmie Ward (very unlikely) or Deonne Bucannon in round 2...That'd be pretty sweet in my book.


Nix might be a good player, but is anyone else seriously excited about drafting another fat guy? We had more fat guys than anyone else (heaviest three man front in the entire NFL) and still couldn't stop the run, much less rush the qb.

Let's draft somebody who can move a little bit. You know, actually tackle somebody.
 

Sunshinepacker

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I think we're in a spot where we don't have great personnel for the front we're running. Our talent on D is not top flight across the board. We have some names, to be sure (CM3 is a stud for anyone, then Tramon and Sam are better than average starters at CB, Hayward has to be one of the top nickel CBs, maybe Burnett is above average at safety), but beyond them, the talent is middling.

We have some young talent on the D Line that is unproven. Jerel Worthy might be a guy who is situational gold, seeing as we play nickel way more than we do our base scheme. Datone Jones appears to be able to put on some weight to be a long term fixture at DE in our base and still be able to give some pop in the nickel.

The rest of our D roster? Doesn't inspire fear in opponents or confidence in our DC. We're dumbing down things rather than playing full out, confuse the hell out of opponents zone blitz magic regardless of who is on the field, and it kind of reminds me of what happened at the end of the Bates/Sanders bend don't break 4-3 era when teams had a clear bead on what we were going to do, and they just schemed to beat it.

Frankly, I don't care whether we draft a hulk at 21 who can run to anchor the DL or some freak to set off the edge opposite CM3, or perhaps replace him. CM3 is great, but he spends a lot of time on the trainer's table. If you could catch lightning in a bottle to get close to similar production, he'd bring a huge windfall in return.

I haven't seen Dom call a go for the throat game in forever because of injuries. Our scheme is complex, and operates best when you've got your major pieces in order. It's been three years since that's happened, and the scheme isn't getting the results it once did.

Our problem is that the likelihood that you catch a player like JJ Watt or Von Miller where we're drafting is slim to none. What elite young pass rusher has come out of the draft past the early phases lately? Aldon Smith was a top 10 guy, and he might be the most dangerous man off the edge in the league now.

I think coaching is a huge issue. Aside from a secondary that brought along CBs to replace Charles Woodson and Al Harris, we're not developing players to play elite football anywhere else. You can argue that the raw material is lacking, but neither Sam Shields nor Tramon were considered elite talents by anyone. They both have elevated their games through development. Gotta see that same leap from the young talent along the DL, and hopefully a change at OLB coach now that Greene is gone lights some serious fire under those guys...

I agree that the talen is lacking but I disagree with the concern regarding development of talent. Mike Daniels has become a VERY good player. You can't just dismiss Tramon, Shields and Hayward from the discussion, they're part of the defense. Also playing into that is this, how many defensive players are actually on the roster from the past four drafts?

Mike Neal (always hurt) actually developed pretty well at OLB and Burnett has developed well at safety (this year he was bad, prior two years he was good) are the only guys from the 2010 draft. In 2011 the only defensive player added that's proven to be NFL_worthy was Davon House but I'm willing to bet it's the player and not the coaches considering their success with other corners. In 2012 we got Perry (injured a lot but has looked good when healthy), Worthy Hayward, Daniels and McMillian as the only guys that have actually stuck on an NFL roster. 2013 I'm not willing to evaluate yet because they were rookies.

Looking at the most recent drafts I would actually say the coaches just haven't been supplied with the players to improve.
 

NYNeal

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One thing about our UFA's, I don't see anyone breaking the bank on any of them. The ones I would try to re-sign in order of their importance are: Finley (if he's 100% healthy and cleared to play), Shields, Neal, Starks, Jones, Raji, Quarless (if Finley is not re-signed), and Evan Dietrich-Smith. The key word is "try". I would make them an offer and if they refuse it, I'd sit back and see what they get offered from someone else. I think most of them will realize that their options are very slim.
But if the money is right for the Packers, these are the guys I'd want. I'm not as high on John Kuhn as everyone else, even though we all love him. Personally, I think he's not athletic enough and that we'd be better served adding another blocking TE and letting Kuhn go. The trend on short yardage now is to put an "O" or "D" lineman in the backfield as a blocker anyway, so that eliminates one function of Kuhn's. Yes, he's a good guy and yes he's smart, and yes, he knows our offense. But FB's have gone the way of dinosaurs for a reason. We simply need a more athletic player on offense than Kuhn in my opinion
I'm also not as down on Raji as everyone else, in spite of his bad year. He's only going to be 28 and I think the Packers should use him differently than they do. I think if we get a stud "D" lineman in the draft, that could help Raji, too.
I do not want Matt Flynn back. Let Tolzien develop and bring in another veteran backup with some arm strength, which Flynn simply does not have.
For me, this draft will be a make or break draft for the Packers' immediate future. They simply must get a couple guys on defense who can be play makers. And -- TT better re-think his position on free agents. If someone is available who can capably fill a need for the Packers, TT must try to sign him.
 

HyponGrey

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EDS is the least important and Sam Shields isn't the most important. Post immediately disregarded. The TTFA talk brings new meaning to "fantasy football." Mighty Matt won us games while still injured: He stays.
 

NelsonsLongCatch

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Leave him in nickel. Mike Neal 2.0. We drafted him to rush the passer, let him do that.

Suddenly the lines between are filled :cool:

I don't know if I'm on board with that yet. You got to give the guy a chance to play the position he was drafted to play.

Also, wouldn't Mike Neal 1.0 have to be good enough to warrant wanting a Mike Neal 2.0?
 

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