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Taylor Mays-another Rouse?

Discussion in '2010 Draft Archive' started by JBlood, Apr 2, 2010.

  1. PackersRS
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    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    Nobody question if Brown can play. Brown is considered a late prospect because he's not ready physically.

    Not the same thing with Mays.

    Mays is only rated as a 1st rounder because of potential. Out of play, a lot of scouts rate him as a 3rd rounder. If his coach believe he has the potential, he should pick him.

    Nobody is projecting Mays to be a solid S. It's either a playmaker, probowler, or a bust.

    Not the same thing with Brown...

    What can change or aggravate this logic is Eric Berry and Earl Thomas.

    If they select Berry, then this logic falls to the ground. Berry is clearly the better prospect, so selecting him over Mays would not be any indication of anything.

    But if they don't, and both Berry and Thomas are off the board by the time they pick, and they still don't take Mays, then it's a huge indication that Mays was only a solid prospect when USC had that amazing D, and that he's not the impact player most think.
    -
    And BTW, I think most scouts, and teams if they pass on Brown, are fools. I see him as the 2nd best OT, behind only Okung. I see him as Oher was last year, and I'm pretty sure right now most teams would've picked him at OT...
  2. NYPacker
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    I'm sorry RS but I just don't see where you're coming from. I'm a big fan of Brown as much as the next guy but I don't believe he should be getting as much benefit of the doubt of Mays even if they are on separate levels.

    Really? Nobody? A lot of scouting reports out there actually question how much Brown can really produce in the NFL. From what I saw he really didn't face much competition either from the games that he did play. Did he face Graham? Morgan? or any of the top tier pass rushers going in this year's draft. Trent Williams, Okung, Bulaga and Davis all did and that's why they're rated higher than him.

    If Carroll believes that Brown can play in the NFL why shouldn't he pick him earlier than expected either? Brown is also rated as a 1st rounder based on potential also. Like I said before he hasn't faced that much competition and he only played at USC at a mere 285 lbs. He's gained a lot more weight since then but how do we know if this added weight affects him or not. Is he a bit slower? Is his footwork the same? How about strength, is he stronger now with those lbs or is he still a tad light? The combine only hinted that he seemed the same but there is absolutely no way to make sure. The fact is there is no gameplay footage to coincide with how he plays with extra weight.

    There are only three things you can be in the NFL: a playmaker, pro bowler, or a bust. What else is there?

    There are so many other advantages that the other OT's bring to the table that Brown can't even touch. Trent Williams is a a monster run blocker, Davis is absolutely nasty and Bulaga is exceptionally smart to neutralize any outside Blitz. I think the way that you're looking at it is that Brown is 2nd best OT behind OKung FOR THE PACKERS. But overall Brown is actually the 5th or the 6th best available.
  3. ThinkICare
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    ThinkICare Cheesehead

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    I didn't really read what other people said about Mays in this thread being close to Polamalu's skill level. RS, now you're assuming that Carroll has to pick one of his own guys otherwise they have to be bad. In my opinion this is terrible logic. I know this is on a much smaller scale, but what if team's head scout is scoping out this one particular prospect, but then that team doesn't draft him? He must be awful too then, right?
  4. PackersRS
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    I don't think I can be more clearer than I was.

    Mays was considered a top 10 pick, but fell when people put on the tape. Brown, for the things you mentioned, lack of competition and physical atributes, wasn't.

    You didn't see Brown get beat ridiculously when you put on tape. You see him improve in run blocking, and being an excelent blocker.

    But you see Mays ridiculously miss angles and whiff when he tries to hit people.

    You don't see inconsistency with Brown. You do, A LOT, with Mays.

    On another view. Mays was considered a top 10 pick because of potential. Scouts don't think Brown is as good as the other LTs because they don't see much potential in him. He doesn't fall because he may bust...
    -
    About him being the 2nd best, it's OVERALL, not for the Packers. I don't see anyone with better feet than him. I don't see anyone with better movement, and being more fluid than him. I only see Bulaga with better hands, but that's because he's an Iowa Hawk.

    The only reason I don't put him as the best OT is because of what you said, but when I see the other players' vids, except for Okung, what I see, when making the adjustement to weight/competition, it's still not enough to be better than Brown.

    Take a look at the vids in the Draft section and you'll see what I mean.

    I'm not saying I know it, because I don't have acess to game tape, only highlights/lowlights. But what I see, he's better than the others.

    -

    About being a probowler or being a bust, that's absolutely not right. To stay with safeties, I don't think than Antoine Bethea is a "pro bowler". He made the probowl, but he's not in the same realm as Ed Reed, Troy Polamalu or even Nick Collins. But I'd absolutely have him, he's far from a bust.

    Is Nick Barnett a pro bowler? He's made the pro bowl, but he's not a "pro bowler" like Patrick Willis or Ray Lewis. But is he a bust? He was chosen in the late 1st...

    Not the same thing.

    What's the deal with Mays? People are worried that he might not be able to cover.

    But if he is, he's one of the top 10 players in this draft. Last year there was doubt who was better, him or Berry, and Berry is a surefire top 10 pick.

    Now, if his only coach doesn't pick him, with 2 picks in the top 15, it means that he doesn't think he's able to turn into that great player.

    I don't know what's so hard to understand. I'm not talking about "one of his guys", I'm talking about a guy that has the potential to be ONE OF THE BEST PLAYERS IN THE DRAFT, but that has a key issue, and played for him.

    I compare it with Michael Johnson, from last year. He was wildly considered the most physically gifted pass rusher in the draft, but had lazyness issues.

    If his own coach passed him up, we'd know there was a serious problem with him.

    It's the same with Mays, but instead of character issues, it's awareness and ballhawking skills.

    If Pete Carroll doesn't think Mays can learn how to be a playmaker and not be beat, then there's something wrong.

    In this same draft, there's a player with similar questions. Jason Pierre-Paul. If his coach at South Florida was coaching the Jaguars, a team that needs a pass rusher, and passed on him for some other player, specially Derrick Morgan or another pass rusher, then you'd know that the coach thinks Pierre-Paul is only a one year wonder, that might not be able to produce in the pros...
  5. ThinkICare
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    I've heard people being worried about Brown too. He's far from a lock himself. The big question with him is if he can add some weight and still be as mobile and vastly improve his run blocking in the process. it's obvious you don't like Mays at all and won't be anything decent in the league, which is fine. This isn't some clear-cut issue though. If Carroll doesn't draft Mays, you can't automatically assume he's a bad prospect. How do you know what Carroll thinks? I'm curious about that. it couldn't be that he thinks there's more pressing needs on the team then a safety or all-around better prospects that drops to those slots.
  6. PackersRS
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    Please quote me saying that if Carroll doesn't take him then he's a bad prospect.

    I did say that I believe if Carroll passes him, then "there's something wrong with him".

    If Taylor Mays played great, while being 6-2, 230 pounds and running a 4.3 forty, then there was no way he'd slip past the top 10.

    If he was really that good, then he'd be selected early, like Berry will...
  7. NYPacker
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    I see what you are trying to say. Mays was considered to be an elite player until his senior year however Brown transformed from a nobody into a first round candidate. So what you're saying is that based on improvement Brown clearly has the better upside. Which still doesn't answer my question, how come if Caroll passes on Mays twice it's considered a bad thing but if Caroll passes on Brown twice it shouldn't really be anything to worry about? In fact if Brown is as good as you mentioned Caroll should take him with his first pick. Hell the Redskins who are moving to a ZBS should take him with the higher pick. I understand that Brown is made to look like the more consistent player but if you're talking about Mays and Browns' college careers overall it seems that Mays is the more consistent one. Mays earned his spot ever since freshman year while Brown had to work his way up. Mays as well has never had a concern with injuries whilst Brown has suffered numerous ankle and calf injuries. Mays had one bad season of out 4 years of playing and Brown has never got a starting spot till '08. I'm not a Taylor Mays fan at all but this logic that you're imposing on Mays is clearly unfair when you're not giving the same amount of doubt to any of Carrol's other former players.
  8. PackersRS
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    Brown was allways, since stepping onto the field, considered a borderline first round talent.

    Again, it's the last time I'm going to say this, but it's all about projections. I do think they should take him instead of Davis, Bulaga and Williams btw.

    But if Carroll had a bottom 1st round pick and passed on Brown, without selecting an OT before, then I'd have to abide by the same logic. That there was something wrong with him.

    But it's because Mays' range is either top 10, top 15 pick or 1st round bust, why I believe Carroll passing on him shows that there's something wrong with Mays.

    Because, comparatively, I don't believe Brown has as much potential, with his physical skills, as Mays do.

    If Mays does pan out, he's a Julius Peppers. But he can be a Gaines Adams, a Vernon Gholston (which I think he is). And those are top 10 picks because of potential.

    IMHO it's not the same thing with Brown. He's more of a Jamaal Brown than a Ryan Clady, in the scouts view.

    It's all about potential. If you believe a guy has as much potential as Mays do, you don't pass on him if you need secondary help.

    If you pass on him, it's because you see too many flaws that overcome his freakish physical abilities...
  9. NYPacker
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    He was??? I've never read a scouting report or any kind of draft guide that could really confirm this. Nobody ever heard of this kid until '08. If you find one please feel free to share.

    This is a contradictory statement. You're saying that Brown should be taken over other top-15 picks like Davis, Bulaga and Williams but your saying that Carroll would take him at the "bottom" of the first round? Why not jump the gun and take him at picks 6 or 14? Brown should go in those two spots since Bulaga and Williams are in the top-5 hands down and Davis in the top 15.

    Brown is as much an athletic freak for a LT as Mays is for a safety. Brown is quicker and more agile than most Tackles in this draft. Maybe he's not as strong as them but still he's a gifted athlete. But this is not where we are drawing the comparison here. We're talking about football experience and instincts. We are comparing Mays' ability to read coverage and make a play on the ball as Browns' ability to read the blitz and stop a rusher. You're right that Mays is mostly up there because of his athleticism but Brown isn't. Mays doesn't have the instincts we all thought but he is certainly athletic. Brown has questionable athleticism but the mentality that Mays lacks and still Brown's potential is limited more than Mays'?

    OR it could be the fact that the seahawks have more pressing needs than safety. Ken Lucas and Marcus Trufant are coming back from injuries and Jordan Babineaux isn't such a bad safety. The Hawks' o-line is in shambles, add in the fact that Walter Jones is retiring and you'll see that O-line is more of a need than secondary help. Which is why I could see Caroll passing up on Brown a bit of curiosity rather than if he were to pass up on Mays.
  10. PackersRS
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    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    Moved to the Draft Talk
    You're right, since '08. That's what I meant. Since he started playing...


    I value him above the others, but most of the scouts don't. That's why I put the slot frame I did...

    No, Brown doesn't lack athleticism.

    You know who's a great comparison? Bruce Campbell. Bruce Campbell is the closest to Mays. When you put on the film, and see the production, it's not there. But the freakish athleticism put them at much higher, due to "potential".

    If Maryland's coach passed on him to select Anthony Davis, or another guy, except for Okung (It's the same with Berry for Mays), then there'd be something wrong...

    I've already explained the whole "draft slot" thing, as well as the physical and potential thing...

    what do you think would be a bigger issue, the Hawks passing on Jamaal Brown or Troy Polamalu, with the exact same issues they have now?
  11. ThinkICare
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    So, if you value him so highly then the other OT's, why shouldn't Carroll take his "guy" in the middle of the 1st? So, you think the safety position is much more improtant then the OT position for the Seahawks? Is this basically where we're at a disagreement?
  12. turbo69
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    Since we actually need a OLB.........we should just draft one. There are plenty out there that as someone here keeps saying........"can bring the wood". How about Hughes or Kindle??
  13. PackersRS
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    No.

    But it's the Jamaal Brown/Troy Polamalu comparison.

    Taylor Mays doesn't project as a Antoine Bethea, as a Dawan Landry. It's either Polamalu like, or Roy Williams like.

    It's not the same thing with Brown, IMHO. Brown isn't in the realm of Robert Gallery, but isn't in the Ryan Clady also. He projects as a solid pass protector, but not a multiple probowler. Brown is more like Clifton than he is a Jonathan Ogden.

    The reason I put him above the others is because I see many flaws in Davis and Williams, and don't see the same upside in Bulaga.

    But scouts see something in them that I don't.

    To me, the best of them is Okung, Bulaga is the most ready, and appears to be a solid LT, better at the running game, and Brown appears to be the one with most potential in the passing game, though he needs to bulk up to play against bull rushers...

    Davis seems to be as talented as Okung when he wants to play, but he just takes too many plays off, there're serious character issues.

    And I don't see anything special in Williams.
  14. NYPacker
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    I think I understand what you mean RS, Brown doesn't really have as high expectations as Taylor Mays. However Brown is supposedly a first round pick and the pressure to perform like a superstar is there no matter where you're drafted in the first round. This is why teams even choose players in the first round to begin with, they're not saying something like oh we expect you to be an ok player with us but a guy that can step in immediately and someone that we can depend. This kind of pressure is actually on Brown as much as it is on Mays, if you're drafted in the first round no matter what pick you have to be great PERIOD.

    And btw on your analysis on the OTs there are definitely going to be things thats scouts see that we as fans don't, it's their job to do so. As Aaron Nagler from cheeseheadtv pointrd out in one of his blogs, fans can watch as much tape as they want and nitpick on prospects but it'll never compare to the amount of work scouts put in foer their work. So even if you say that Brown is better than Williams or even Bulaga, the fact is that there are solid professionals out there who have info to contrafict that, and plus I believe that they're right.
  15. PackersRS
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    I agree with you on both instances. Absolutely. I'm not saying otherwise. Nobody selected on the first round is expected to be just ok. They're supposed to be their franchise players for the next 10 years.

    And Brown certainly fits the bill.

    But you understand what I'm saying, right? There's a difference between Jamaal Brown, a guy that is a franchise left tackle for sure, that's a solid core player for sure, and a Jonathan Ogden, a guy that is better than everybody else at the position.

    People won't select Mays because they think he's just solid, and can be their starter for the next 10 years. They'll select him because they think he can be a trully great player, a difference maker.

    While I don't see the same thing with Brown.

    To finalize, it's the last time I'm going to drag this thread, here's the thought process I BELIEVE that teams will have with Mays and Brown, and why Carroll passing on Mays concerns me more than with Brown:

    I don't believe teams will pass on Mays because they think there're better players on the board (aside from Suh, McCoy, Berry, the really elite guys). I think teams will pass on him because they don't think he'll be a great player, and that he's not worth the risk so early. He'd be the perfect 3rd rounder, because, like Polian said, the 3rd round is when you take a gamble on athletes which aren't players.

    With Brown, I believe teams will pass on him because, even though they do think he'll be a great player, they believe others will be even better than him.

    And about scouts, with the LTs, they probably see something I don't. I've already said so, that I don't have the same access to film, report from coaches and teammates, etc, that scouts and GMs do. But even with all that, they still make mistakes. It was almost unanimous that Mandarich was the best prospect in that 89 draft. And nobody thought much of Tom Brady in the 2000 draft. So I don't blindly thrust the evaluations. I try to make up my mind from what I see, putting all the info I got together.

    But almost every single scout will point out that Mays just can't cover anybody. I believe that if he's selected, it's because a coach thinks too much of his own talent, that HE (or his coaching staff) can turn Mays into an elite player, because of his athletic ability.
  16. TheGiftedApe
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    TheGiftedApe TheGiftedApe

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    I still don't mind the pick of May's here though this is my reasoning.

    We really need a Cover Corner, I love al harris, but it's obvious he has lost a step, and who knows how many after this injury, He is a pass interference liability lately. Now Tramon Williams looked promising, but he was exposed in game after game last year. And although he sometimes redeemed himself, he is somewhat undersized, doesnt show blazing speed, has coverage liabilities, and isnt a sure-fire wrap-up tackler. He is a nickel guy, or a great #4. While we have Nick collins and woodson, we need a SS, and a #2 CB, someone who can take over for woodson in 2-3 years, and for al harris this year. Then we need someone who can replace Bigby Immediatley, if that guy is mays he will be playing SS and behind woodson 90% of the time for his first couple years, I think a lack of coverage could be ok as long as he shows progress. I mean Trevor ford, Josh Bell, Brandon Underwood, Pat Lee, one of these guys has to really step up this year, or TT needs to clean house. Jarret Bush and Bigby should be on the practice squad where they belong.
  17. NYPacker
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    I don't think it's Al Harris who has been the pass interference liability but T. Williams. But I'll give Williams the benefit of the doubt because he really cut down on the penalties as the season went on and showed that he can be that No. 2 corner we're looking for. Our main objective is to find a corner that can take over for Woodson in the future. Imho we won't find that corner this year but will have to wait till the next. In order to replace Woodson we'll have to spend a legit 1st rounder as the years go forward.

    Back to the Mays situation, like RS said we need a guy who can come in and display pure coverage skills IMMEDIATELY. Mays can have as much work ethic as possible but if he can't fix the flaws of our secondary then we really don't need him. The only position that we should draft as a future project is OT, that's it! Everyone else we draft should be impact players in year 1.
  18. obryant13
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    :suicide2:...i dont usually post but this is getting old
    RSPACKER your bias against mays is the most annoying thing i have to read on the forums everyday. You will rag on mays one line then the very next you call him polamolu to help exagerate your point of why if his college coach doesnt draft him hes a bust logic that is ruining your reputation on here im sure no one else can stand it either. Im not a usc or taylor mays fan, i agree hes had bad coverage issuses but we pick 23rd not top ten but hes a guy whos only flaws keeping him from being top 5-10 can be fixed in coaching.

    He wouldnt be my first option at 23 but i have a feeling things are going to leave him as best available and TT will pull the trigger and you will cccrrryyyy non stop and be the death of the forum
  19. PackersRS
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    Don't get me wrong. Taylor Mays is a much better player than Trevor Ford, Josh Bell, Underwood. I don't know about Pat Lee, because he's never healthy.

    But that doesn't say much...
    Exactly my point. I don't know if he can correct his flaws, I don't think he can, and I believe his coach passing on him means he can't.
    You must be confusing me for those video kids about Harrell, or be one of them yourself.

    I may hate Mays, and I do, but that's not what's behind my reasoning, and most people here know what I talk about.

    They also know that, once a player dons the Green and Gold uniform, he'll have my full and unquestioned support, until he demonstrates that he doesn't deserve that support.

    I don't cheer for or against a player, or a coach, or a GM. I cheer for the Green Bay Packers.

    I really don't know who you think I am, or for how long have you been seeing my posts, but the minute I cry because of something as little as a draft, or any off-field decision, I'll need intervention.

    I'll save my crying for when the Packers win or lose the SB, or a crucial game. But I'm not dumb enough to think one off-field decision is a certainty of on-field sucess of demise. In the end, I trust the people competent and paid to make those decisions, but it doesn't stop me from having my own opinion of what should be done.

    To end it, if you don't like something, DON'T READ IT. Be my guest and leave. Why would someone read through an extensive text they don't like is beyond me...

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