Side tracked thread from rest starters

[Iron Lion]

Hey ChiTown, you the one from our forums?

LOLions, back off man we're not scum like the Bears are.

 

[Iron Lion]

Right there with you. I'm firmly in the ANYBODY BUT DETROIT Super Bowl camp, as well (in the NFC). I'd rather have seen the Bears get in. [Insert audible gasp, hush from the crowd.] Seriously.

Seriously, what the ****?

Vince Wilfork, not a Detroit Lion, gouged a Giant's eye.

Jared Allen, not a Detroit Lion, punched a guy in the nuts. Also his teammate Robison kicked a guy in the nuts. I think that was a Packer that got it.

Rominowski, not a Detroit Lion, admitted to snapping Dave Meggett's finger at the bottom of a pileup.

Albert Haynesworth, not a Detroit Lion, deliberately stomped a guy's exposed face with his cleated foot.

There's lots of other things that I can't think of off the top of my head.




What have the Lions done that's so horrible? Stomped a guy's arm pit? Lol. Compare that to the above.

Also, to come from a Packers fan it is a bit silly. Woodson punched a guy after the whistle if I'm not mistaken. While in a Green Bay Packer uniform. So how a fan can back up Woodson's actions and yet condemn Suh is a bit silly. Or if you don't condone what Woodson did then I don't know why you can't see the problem here.

 

[peteralan71]

It's like this, Iron Lion.... we're Packers fans, so we will back them. We don't have to be "fair". Sorry but that's just the way it is. Welcome to packerforum by the way

 

[Iron Lion]

I'm just here for this week, then 2 weeks from now when we meet in the divisional. After that I won't be back till next year.

 

[neilfii]

Vince Wilfork, not a Detroit Lion, gouged a Giant's eye.

Jared Allen, not a Detroit Lion, punched a guy in the nuts. Also his teammate Robison kicked a guy in the nuts. I think that was a Packer that got it.

Rominowski, not a Detroit Lion, admitted to snapping Dave Meggett's finger at the bottom of a pileup.

Albert Haynesworth, not a Detroit Lion, deliberately stomped a guy's exposed face with his cleated foot.

There's lots of other things that I can't think of off the top of my head.




What have the Lions done that's so horrible? Stomped a guy's arm pit? Lol. Compare that to the above.

Also, to come from a Packers fan it is a bit silly. Woodson punched a guy after the whistle if I'm not mistaken. While in a Green Bay Packer uniform. So how a fan can back up Woodson's actions and yet condemn Suh is a bit silly. Or if you don't condone what Woodson did then I don't know why you can't see the problem here.

I don't condone what CWood did. I can't condone what Suh did. And I quit using the "everyone else is doing it" excuse when I was in grade school.

 

[Jules]

I am confused on your take, Bogart. You think it's best to rest the starters. On the other hand you don't want to meet us in the playoffs. If you don't want to see us in the playoffs then wouldn't you want the Packers to beat us in W17, forcing us to play @ NO instead of @ NYG/DAL? Because if we get #5 we can roll through the #4 and it's guaranteed we'll be playing you guys in the divisonal because #6 ATL will not get past #3 NO

We have to be careful here. While I probably would favor the Lions over Giants/Cowboys it's no guarantee they roll past either. Lions are young and inexperienced and can be beaten too.

With that being said I think I would actually prefer Detroit to the Giants in the first game. I would prefer the Cowboys to both though.

 

[Poppa San]

I'm just here for this week, then 2 weeks from now when we meet in the divisional. After that I won't be back till next year.

Don't go. Hang around and bask in the reflected glory of a true people's team. Learn from the regulars and see how the true fans (as opposed to the bandwagonners that descend on other forums) handle success.

 

[Iron Lion]

Don't go. Hang around and bask in the reflected glory of a true people's team. Learn from the regulars and see how the true fans (as opposed to the bandwagonners that descend on other forums) handle success.

The true fans who uh, let' see, send Rodgers death threats because of the decision made by the team that they themselves are rooting for, only to make "Thanks for the memories, Bert" signs after Rodgers is seen to be a legit QB?

I live in CA. I know a guy in one of my grad courses, he saw my Lions shirt back around week 3 and asked if I was serious, I answered yes, 15 years and running, and he informed me that he was a GB fan. When I casually mentioned the Super Bowl win, he acted surprised and said something about how "Oh yeah I forgot we won it." Every time my Lions lost he'd say "How 'bout them Lions?" Sht like that.

 

[Iron Lion]

Don't get me wrong though. Packers fans got nothing on Bears fans in terms of being scum, being annoying, rude, a--holes, etc, you name it.

 

[Poppa San]

The true fans who uh, let' see, send Rodgers death threats because of the decision made by the team that they themselves are rooting for, only to make "Thanks for the memories, Bert" signs after Rodgers is seen to be a legit QB?

I live in CA. I know a guy in one of my grad courses, he saw my Lions shirt back around week 3 and asked if I was serious, I answered yes, 15 years and running, and he informed me that he was a GB fan. When I casually mentioned the Super Bowl win, he acted surprised and said something about how "Oh yeah I forgot we won it." Every time my Lions lost he'd say "How 'bout them Lions?" Sht like that.

1) I said regulars and true fans not someone who says they are a fan but just for this season or two.

2) You forgot to mention the obligatory reference to the "shoot the coaches dog or choke your child when they lose" fans.

 

[Jules]

The true fans who uh, let' see, send Rodgers death threats because of the decision made by the team that they themselves are rooting for, only to make "Thanks for the memories, Bert" signs after Rodgers is seen to be a legit QB?

I live in CA. I know a guy in one of my grad courses, he saw my Lions shirt back around week 3 and asked if I was serious, I answered yes, 15 years and running, and he informed me that he was a GB fan. When I casually mentioned the Super Bowl win, he acted surprised and said something about how "Oh yeah I forgot we won it." Every time my Lions lost he'd say "How 'bout them Lions?" Sht like that.

Did this actually happen?

Aaron. My poor baby!!!!

 

[Iron Lion]

Lol so your Packers win the Super Bowl and you don't watch the America's Game.

 

[Jules]

Lol so your Packers win the Super Bowl and you don't watch the America's Game.

Who me? Was that in America's Game? I am not even sure I watched it all and if I did LOL. I know Aaron got a rough time and got booing and all kinds of crap went down but I kinda tried to turn my head a bit to the Rodgers/Favre drama. I actually liked Favre back in the day. But, death threats? Damn.

Packers are my second team really who I enjoy very much. Always liked them but really started to follow them more closely due to Aaron, whom I adore. For the regulars here they all know I am a Colts fan. I am from Indiana.

I doubt I know nearly as much about the Packers as most of the die hards here. I am trying though....still learning.

BTW Go Jaguars. Go MJD. Please.....#1 pick.

 

[Iron Lion]

Lol and now rooting against your own team... to each his own I guess. Yes the America's Game comment was to you, and yes Rodgers received death threats/threats of violence upon his person.

I suspected you were a Colts fan but you came at me with Rodgers adoration so I thought maybe your avatar is a shopped pic of Rodgers in the Pro Bowl, I don't know lol you are blowing my mind TBH.

Now I'm starting to wonder how many of these cheeseheads know less about their own team's history than I do. I'm sure some of the folks here know it inside and out, but I know NFL history really well and I probably got many of them beat.

 

[Jules]

Lol and now rooting against your own team... to each his own I guess. Yes the America's Game comment was to you, and yes Rodgers received death threats/threats of violence upon his person.

I suspected you were a Colts fan but you came at me with Rodgers adoration so I thought maybe your avatar is a shopped pic of Rodgers in the Pro Bowl, I don't know lol you are blowing my mind TBH.

Now I'm starting to wonder how many of these cheeseheads know less about their own team's history than I do. I'm sure some of the folks here know it inside and out, but I know NFL history really well and I probably got many of them beat.

It's a normal thing with me. Random outbursts of Rodgers love is nothing to be ashamed of.

Not too many Colts fans love Aaron Rodgers too. I guess this makes me one of a kind. Besides it's better then all the Colts fans who also like the Giants on the side cause of Eli. At least I am original. Packers are cool and I always liked them anyway.


And darn straight I want that first pick in the draft. Two wins is enough. Child please. You take Luck/groom him for a little while or trade it away and get a lot back robbing a team. It's a win/win. Unless the AFC South had an under the table agreement to let us win. But, MJD owns Indy so it's our only hope.
I may have to change my avatar Sunday if the Colts win. Or else I can plan on him falling to #2 and the Rams not trading the pick.

 

[Iron Lion]

I've seen my Lions go through lots of seasons like the Colts are having and was never of the opinion that 2 wins is enough. I've never rooted for my team to lose a game for any reason whatsoever. You sir are... I don't even know what to say.

BTW I don't really care what the media says, I don't care what scouts say, there's no such thing as a sure pick. Especially at QB. Need I mention the unmentionables?

Ryan Leaf, JaMayonnaise Russell, my Joey Harrington along with his draft buddy David Carr, Ponder & Gabbert if that's not too early, Heath Schuler, Jeff George perhaps (he's debatable), also my Lions have had Andre Ware, then there's Samantha Bradford who's looked like sht every time I've seen him, Mark Sanchez is safe to call a bust, JP Losman I think was a first rounder as well, Kyle Boller, Tim Couch, Vince Young probably is a bust at this point, Byron Leftwich, Akili Smith, Tim Tebow was a first rounder don't forget it, Matt Leinart, Rex Grossman I think was a first rounder, and Alex Smith you cannot convince me is not a bust especially being taken #1.

All of the above are to my knowledge first rounders. I'm not even considering anyone taken out of the first round. I didn't consult anything other than my NFL poster which has all the teams on it so I could look at each team.

Also let's not forget there's lots of players who weren't busts but things just didn't work out, such as Daunte Culpepper. He had skill, had a good year or 2, then everything fell apart for the guy because he couldn't put himself back together after a catastrophic injury.

Furthermore all of the guys listed in that paragraph are guys who were complete dogsht and yet were taken in the first round, don't forget that there's guys who were very bad yet servicable like Trent Dilfer, he was a first rounder, he was crap, but played well enough to get a ring on what was otherwise the best team of all time. Then there's lots of first rounder QBs who are not dogsht or bad but still nothing more than average, such as Josh Freeman or perhaps Tarvaris Jackson, I'm 90% sure he was a first rounder.

Most Some first rounders turn out like Rivers or McFlabb or Eli, i.e. they have a good career but nothing spectacular/HoF worthy or anything you can rely on to build around. Yes I'm well aware the Giants got a Trophy with Eli but it wasn't like he was the entire reason they won it. Really the best you can realistically hope for out of a first rounder is someone like Big Ben, a guy who can win reliably with a good team around him.

The elite QBs historically are almost randomly drafted. By that I mean you can pick a HoF or future-HoF QB and he's probably only got around a 50% chance of being taken in the first round. For example,

Marino was first round but late, Favre was second round, Montana was third round, Brady was sixth round, Unitas was undrafted and cut from the Steelers. Elway was first round, Warner was undrafted and cut by some cheese churners.

Bottom line is the draft is anything but a sure thing, you don't want to tank games or root for your team to tank games for a draft pick. We won out last year, it helped the team's confidence going into this year and we were still able to get Fairley who slid to us. Also the 1997 Atlanta Falcons started 0-8 and finished 7-9, the next year they went 14-2 and lost the Super Bowl. Winning at the end of the season helps a team more than you think. The Colts starting 0-13 and finishing 3-13 would do more than you can imagine heading into next year.

 

[Bogart]

Iron Lion I'd like to ask you how you have felt about the Lions decrease of power going back to when Barry Sanders was on the team.


I've spoken with Lions fans from a few years back that do like discussing this. You know the whole "Why did Barry leave, why did we suck so bad the last 10 years". Not trying to rub salt in the wound, but did you ever blame your ownership for it?

I researched this a few years ago and wrote a long 4 page article on my take of the Lions ownership dealing with money and not seeming to care about the losing seasons of the team, but I refrained myself from ever showing the article off, or sending it anywhere online as I kept asking myself if I had everything wrong and was being too opinionated on the whole thing.
I always had the feeling from reading parts of Barry's book, that he lost his love for the game because the Lions never built a team around him. Sure they had winning seasons but it seemed from his perspective that they were just patting him on the back, more worried of him breaking records, rather than getting a ring. There's mixed thoughts on how he left Detroit but I'll say, he's more classy than someone that acts like a baby and wants a ring and dumps everything to go to another team (LeBron James and his big "decision"). But other than Barry Sanders, looking back at some of those Detroit teams he was a part of, they did have talent, that's something I argue people. Pat Swilling, Brett Perriman, Mel Gray, Glover...They did have some talent, but I don't believe it was utilized as it should have been.

One way or another, I do think before 0-16, the Lions management did a poor job with the team. It seems they got a wake up call after that disaster season.

 

[longtimefan]

Lol and now rooting against your own team... to each his own I guess. Yes the America's Game comment was to you, and yes Rodgers received death threats/threats of violence upon his person.

I suspected you were a Colts fan but you came at me with Rodgers adoration so I thought maybe your avatar is a shopped pic of Rodgers in the Pro Bowl, I don't know lol you are blowing my mind TBH.

Now I'm starting to wonder how many of these cheeseheads know less about their own team's history than I do. I'm sure some of the folks here know it inside and out, but I know NFL history really well and I probably got many of them beat.

So one poster on here who ISNT a Packer fan 1st and your questioning how much the otherrs know about the team?

 

[longtimefan]

Hey ChiTown, you the one from our forums?

LOLions, back off man we're not scum like the Bears are.

Really..So when was last time a player for the Bears got ejected for stomping on a lineman? Or better yet name last Bear that got fines for late hits or what not, then got suspended for same violation?

 

[Iron Lion]

Bogart,

Hmm where to begin. First of all so you know my perspective, I started off as a fan in 1995. My introduction to the NFL was simultaneous with picking the Lions as my team. However I never really watched them until the playoff game at Philly, which you probably don't know about but is infamous in Lions circles. I was too mortified to even care the next year, but I followed the team rigorously in 1997 and it turned out to be Barry's 2000-yard season. I followed the team with the same intensity until 2000, when we were 9-6 and needed only to beat the lowly Bears to get into the playoffs, I was not able to watch the game and my Lions lost. I then decided to get Sunday Ticket, just in time for the Millen era, and after only 10 horrible years I have finally watched every play of every game in a winning season. Now onto your points...


Barry didn't really give many reasons for leaving other than losing the desire to play the game. He did remark that contract talks with the team were like pulling teeth, but I don't know why he was even present at the table for the negotiations. I think the reason he left is because Coach Bobby Ross was an a--hole. That's just my opinion however. Perhaps he just lost his love of the game. Perhaps he felt he would not win it all with the Lions and did not want to play out the rest of what was in his eyes a futile career.

Barry never really seemed to show much interest in the Lions during his retirement, he showed up for a few things here and there, but this year with this turnaround season he's become vocal on Twitter about the Lions, he's talking on the radio, he's appearing in our Play-60 commercial, he's giving dialogues for our MNF pregame show and going to games, etc. So perhaps as far as Barry goes, his heart never left the Lions, but the losing and mediocrity killed him and now he's back because he sees a team that is potentially a solid offseason away from being a Super Bowl contender.

As far as building the team around Barry, they tried that, they took QB Andre Ware high. I give him the title "QB" only because I assume you don't know who he is, as he was a bust. He is infamous to us Lions fans. After the Ware experiment ended, the Lions kept trying to find quick fixes at the QB spot but nothing was working. Barry spent his whole career looking at different jersey numbers in front of him. That's why everything failed.


Regarding ownership, money, and caring about the team:

I do not think that Mr. Ford is apathetic about the Lions. From what I see, he's just too loyal. He hired Millen, paid him lots of money, and did not want to fire him because he was too loyal to the bafoon. But he did pay the man lots of money and allowed him to max out the cap on the team every year, something that small market teams are unable or unwilling to do. So Mr. Ford has shown he's willing to give out money for the hopes of winning the Super Bowl, but I don't know what kind of good sense he has. Ultimately though there's not much more you can expect from a hands-off owner than being willing to hand out the money to make a winner. Mr Ford is willing to do that, he just is not smart enough to identify the highest-up man to run the thing.

One thing I'll put in the middle of everything here is a small miracle. During the season in which we'd eventually finish 0-16, we had a loss early in the season @ SF. Looking at the final score did not indicate how badly we played. Actually, it wasn't how badly we played, it was the complete lack of effort that I saw. Losing... years of losing I felt I had learned to be able to accept, but not trying sickened me. I disowned the Lions after the game, literally saying to myself I'd throw away all my Lions gear if I felt the same way for at least a week or so, and then amazingly, less than 24 hours later, Ford Jr goes on the radio and campaigns for the firing of Millen, and Ford Sr obliges. A part of me felt a strong connection to who would be the owner of the team in the near future. He must have seen the same thing I saw and I feel he will be a good, intelligent owner.

After the firing of Millen I take my Lions back, never missing a game after disowning them. Mayhew is promoted as interim GM, makes a marvelous trade in my opinion, fleecing Dallas with the Roy Williams trade. At this point we still have Rod Moronelli as the head coach, a complete idiot, but my world is shaken up so much by the Millen firing it's impossible to not be excited. The 0-16 happened, everything is kind of just like a blur like what women must feel in a **** shower, and then there's the announcement that Mayhew will be promoted to permanent GM.

Most Lions fans were irate about this, seeing it as another stupid loyalty move by Mr Ford. After all, Mayhew had been here for most/all of the Millen years working under the bafoon. I liked the things he had to say in his press conference but I wasn't immediately sold on him.

The 0-16 was not a wakeup call for management. It was just coincidental that Millen had been fired after assembling the 0-16 team. So now we've gone 0-16, but there's hope because Millen isn't there, and of course a new regime will follow, i.e. a new coaching staff and an overhaul of the roster.

One thing that's insightful is something Coach Mooch had to say. When asked about the Lions new success, and all the talent accumulated in such a short time frame, he said that the Lions had actually had great scouts all along, that all the college players they'd recommended did well in the NFL, and that "management" (he didn't want to say Millen's name I guess) didn't listen to the scouts. Mooch is surmising that Mayhew is listening to them.

Still though I think that Mayhew is a phenomenal GM. He kills it in the draft, he kills it in trades, he kills it in free agency. I think that probably all of the credit for this turnaround of the franchise should go to him. After all, Millen got all of the blame. However, I don't think he was kept as the permanent GM because Ford Sr recognized this, but rather, as I've said, out of stupid loyalty, and I think it was just the case of the blind squirrel finding the nut this time.

 

[Iron Lion]

longtimefan, I'm going off of 100% of interactions I've had with Packers fans in my life. Perhaps there is a Packers fan out there who knows the team history very well, but either I haven't met him/her or he/she hasn't made it apparent.

As for jumping on me because of Suh, I've said this on this forum, your own Woodson has punched a man on the field after a play. Sure, maybe he wasn't treated the same way as Suh, but it's the same thing. It's a minor attack on someone. It's not going for eyes or nuts.

As for you defending the Chicago Bears football club, wtf is wrong with you? The Bears are scum from top to bottom, from ownership to fan, from 1920 to present. It started with Halas, he was a human being with no integrity. He saturated the franchise with his ways until he died in '83. Then there was Ditka, the class act. The fans are also fine gentlemen. Don't forget the incident they pulled with the Ravens this year in the draft. The Bears are an organization that simply lacks integrity. In football, men hit each other and try to hurt one another and try to break their wills, but there is still a moral foundation, a collective agreement of what integrity is, and the Bears do not have it. The fact that I can't think of an incident where they stomped on someone does not change that.

 

[Jules]

I've seen my Lions go through lots of seasons like the Colts are having and was never of the opinion that 2 wins is enough. I've never rooted for my team to lose a game for any reason whatsoever. You sir are... I don't even know what to say.

BTW I don't really care what the media says, I don't care what scouts say, there's no such thing as a sure pick. Especially at QB. Need I mention the unmentionables?

Ryan Leaf, JaMayonnaise Russell, my Joey Harrington along with his draft buddy David Carr, Ponder & Gabbert if that's not too early, Heath Schuler, Jeff George perhaps (he's debatable), also my Lions have had Andre Ware, then there's Samantha Bradford who's looked like sht every time I've seen him, Mark Sanchez is safe to call a bust, JP Losman I think was a first rounder as well, Kyle Boller, Tim Couch, Vince Young probably is a bust at this point, Byron Leftwich, Akili Smith, Tim Tebow was a first rounder don't forget it, Matt Leinart, Rex Grossman I think was a first rounder, and Alex Smith you cannot convince me is not a bust especially being taken #1.

All of the above are to my knowledge first rounders. I'm not even considering anyone taken out of the first round. I didn't consult anything other than my NFL poster which has all the teams on it so I could look at each team.

Also let's not forget there's lots of players who weren't busts but things just didn't work out, such as Daunte Culpepper. He had skill, had a good year or 2, then everything fell apart for the guy because he couldn't put himself back together after a catastrophic injury.

Furthermore all of the guys listed in that paragraph are guys who were complete dogsht and yet were taken in the first round, don't forget that there's guys who were very bad yet servicable like Trent Dilfer, he was a first rounder, he was crap, but played well enough to get a ring on what was otherwise the best team of all time. Then there's lots of first rounder QBs who are not dogsht or bad but still nothing more than average, such as Josh Freeman or perhaps Tarvaris Jackson, I'm 90% sure he was a first rounder.

Most Some first rounders turn out like Rivers or McFlabb or Eli, i.e. they have a good career but nothing spectacular/HoF worthy or anything you can rely on to build around. Yes I'm well aware the Giants got a Trophy with Eli but it wasn't like he was the entire reason they won it. Really the best you can realistically hope for out of a first rounder is someone like Big Ben, a guy who can win reliably with a good team around him.

The elite QBs historically are almost randomly drafted. By that I mean you can pick a HoF or future-HoF QB and he's probably only got around a 50% chance of being taken in the first round. For example,

Marino was first round but late, Favre was second round, Montana was third round, Brady was sixth round, Unitas was undrafted and cut from the Steelers. Elway was first round, Warner was undrafted and cut by some cheese churners.

Bottom line is the draft is anything but a sure thing, you don't want to tank games or root for your team to tank games for a draft pick. We won out last year, it helped the team's confidence going into this year and we were still able to get Fairley who slid to us. Also the 1997 Atlanta Falcons started 0-8 and finished 7-9, the next year they went 14-2 and lost the Super Bowl. Winning at the end of the season helps a team more than you think. The Colts starting 0-13 and finishing 3-13 would do more than you can imagine heading into next year.

You are wasting your time and I don't need the lecture as if I am a draft moron and don't know what it is like to sit through a losing season. I am not new to the NFL. I know all too well enough about the draft, the busts and all of it. You do realize how many Colts fans wanted Leaf don't you? Much of the Suck for Luck thing got started as a fun joke early in the year but the more you lose the more of a reality it got. Also many Colts fans love the idea also of taking the first pick and trading it away for more and filling up some holes if Peyton comes back healthy.

Hey it can't be worse the Skins fans. They went from "Suck to Luck" to "Mail it in for Matt" then "God awful for Griffin."

And I also would love to see a new head coach here. It's nice that last years Lions ended on a high note but they were also different situations. One a young team on the rise and the other a team who has been on a high note for so long they may need to desperately start to seriously get some plans in place for life after some of the beloved stars already on it.

If the Colts win Sunday then they win. Nothing I can do about it. #2 is a good spot but #1 is better. May have to change the old avatar though if a win happens.......

 

[Jules]

Bogart,

Hmm where to begin. First of all so you know my perspective, I started off as a fan in 1995. My introduction to the NFL was simultaneous with picking the Lions as my team.

If you remember the 1995 season well don't you think these Broncos look eerily similar to those Colts that year? Those Colts finished 9-7, Harbaugh was thrown in there after a few games and became Captain Comeback. They had luck on their side through the AFC title game where they lost due to the refs IMO and bad luck in general.....

And even better the 1995 NFC playoff teams are very similar to the group we could have this year. And the #1 seed in the NFC won the SB that year defeating the Steelers who were #2. But, I do suppose Baltimore could also fill in the Steelers role if need be.

I am amazed at how OT this thread has gone. Sorry mods.

BTW I was rooting for the Colts to get the first pick in 1997 near the end. Sorry......

 

[Iron Lion]

As I said I didn't watch much football in my early days. All I remember from the 1995 playoffs, other than my Lions getting thrashed, was reading Harbaugh's lips as he said, "I thought he caught it." And I did too until I saw the replay.

My knowledge of the 1995 playoffs is more "academic" than actual memory. I know NFL history very well, and for that reason I know what happened that year, but that's it.

 

[Jules]

As I said I didn't watch much football in my early days. All I remember from the 1995 playoffs, other than my Lions getting thrashed, was reading Harbaugh's lips as he said, "I thought he caught it." And I did too until I saw the replay.

My knowledge of the 1995 playoffs is more "academic" than actual memory. I know NFL history very well, and for that reason I know what happened that year, but that's it.

On the plus side, Jim Harbaugh finally got his win over the Steelers on MNF.

And never ever count out a Jim Harbaugh led team.