Should Pat Lee have been penalized and/or ejected?

[Ceodore]

Maybe not ejected but definately flagged. The person who strikes last always gets the flag, thats just how it goes ala Devin Hester and Sam Shields' dustup in the Bears game this year.

 

[Rodgers in the House]

After being dragged across the field and taking a punch himself I'm glad he punched back. It was still wrong though, but how much are you suppose to take? Nice to see how the refs averted their eyes on that one

 

[longtimefan]

Most of the time, when I see an ejection, I see two players who should be ejected. In this case, either both or neither should have been.

It annoys me that officials often only call the penalty on the player who retaliates instead of both. Such is football... and in life.

Maybe time to doing a instant reply to see why he threw a punch

 

[Kitten]

Maybe time to doing a instant reply to see why he threw a punch

He may of had good reason for throwing a punch (most people do), but all the refs are going to care about is he threw a punch. He reacted, lost his temper, what have you, regardless of the cause, it was the effect, his reaction that got him bounced. He drew the flag and ejection for retaliation.

 

[Forget Favre]

Maybe time to doing a instant reply to see why he threw a punch

Agreed.
They should do replays when they think about ejecting someone.
There are two sides to a story and they could get the other side first with the video evidence.

 

[Forget Favre]

If you go back and watch the video I posted in the 1st message of this thread, watch closley at 34 seconds where it's slowed down.
You can see that Pat Lee is turned and trying to run away from those two Lions players. You can clearly see that they are holding him back.
I am just flabbergasted that they are not the ones penalized and that it was Lee.
It was an unfair call.
Thankfully the Packers went on to beat Dirty Detroit.

 

[peteralan71]

BS express, bro. He got hosed.

 

[longtimefan]

If you go back and watch the video I posted in the 1st message of this thread, watch closley at 34 seconds where it's slowed down.
You can see that Pat Lee is turned and trying to run away from those two Lions players. You can clearly see that they are holding him back.
I am just flabbergasted that they are not the ones penalized and that it was Lee.
It was an unfair call.
Thankfully the Packers went on to beat Dirty Detroit.

Just a play that a team got screwed on...Luckily it didnt hurt he Packers

 

[RickInAZ]

I don't know if he should have been ejected, but the two Lions who were holding him both during and after the play should have drawn a penalty. That was ridiculous, and I would have been just as ticked off as Lee was.

 

[PackwillBEback]

I guess nobody read my previous post...oh well.

 

[Forget Favre]

I guess nobody read my previous post...oh well.

I did but I don't agree with it except for this part;

HOWEVER, I will say that R32 should have also been penalized with a personal foul for his grasping and pushing up on the facemask of Lee. I don't think R32's actions warranted an ejection, as I didn't see a punch. It should have been offsetting personal fouls, no 15 yards for the Lions.

Again, watch the video where it is in slow motion starting at 0:34 where you can see Lee is trying to get away and the player(s) are clearly holding him! (I guess your not reading my posts either.)
If an official would have seen the hold and thrown a flag at that moment, then Lee may not have thrown the punch that got him ejected.
Don't "tell" me/us that the manhandling/mugging/holding of Lee is legal.
If that is legal then how come flags get thrown all the time for holding.
And didn't those guys continue to hold Lee after the whistle was blown?

 

[PackwillBEback]

I did but I don't agree with it except for this part;



Again, watch the video where it is in slow motion starting at 0:34 where you can see Lee is trying to get away and the player(s) are clearly holding him! (I guess your not reading my posts either.)
If an official would have seen the hold and thrown a flag at that moment, then Lee may not have thrown the punch that got him ejected.
Don't "tell" me/us that the manhandling/mugging/holding of Lee is legal.
If that is legal then how come flags get thrown all the time for holding.
And didn't those guys continue to hold Lee after the whistle was blown?

You definitely make a good point. I'm not saying that it isn't holding, but it isn't a hold (in terms of penalties). I don't agree with it, however this is the way it is interpreted by the higher up officials in every level. This is the way they tell their officials to enforce it, they tell them not to throw flags for holding on plays like these.

You do see tons of holding calls made, however those are made on one on ones. You get a crap load of those (you actually get more illegal blocks in the back on scrimmage kicks and free kicks than holds...rightfully so). I'm just telling you in situations like this, you aren't going to see the holding flag. You will get criticized by supervisors, evaluators, etc if you were to throw a holding flag in this situation. As I mentioned before the idea is that they are getting overpowered anyways. While I agree with that, I believe if you are overpowering them there is no need to hold and if you do, you should get penalized. However, this isn't the interpretation and application given by most rules committees and officiating committees that decide how the other officials should officiate.

I do agree with you on the point you made if they could throw a flag in situations like that it could have prevented Lee from punching. It is a great point, you step in before it escalates. You don't even need a flag to avoid that...you should be closing in on this play (even on a live ball) as it is away from the ball AND you should immediately be there once the ball is dead. THey did a **** poor job preventing this, along with Suh's play....

I get your point on the fact they were holding after the whistle too, that isn't good...HOWEVER this act shouldn't necessarily be penalized after the play because then we would see a flag on 50% more plays after it is over because chicken sh*t happens every time. Football players chicken fight all the time...and you don't want to throw flags on that. Just come in and tell them to knock the crap off.

You definitely are making valid points, but the way things are interpreted and enforced by officials in general it was legal to do what they did to Lee. It shouldn't be, but that is the interpretation given by the officials in charge of this at every level from high school to the NFL.

 

[Forget Favre]

Thanx for making that more clear. I understand.
The rules or interpretations should be changed IMO to prevent holds like that.
Would you agree that it is an unfair situation?

 

[neilfii]

I guess nobody read my previous post...oh well.

I read your post as well and I only agree with you in part. Apparently you did not read mine. In order to disqualify Lee two things were necessary: 1. the infraction had to be flagrant, and 2. the official declaring the disqualification must have observed the entire action.
First of all, as you point out, it was flagrant "in [your] opinion" an opinion which I do not share.
Second, it is highly unlikely that the ref "observed the entire action" or I doubt it would have been an ejection: a 15 yard penalty, absolutely, positively, without a doubt a fifteen yarder.
A disqualification in a case like this is a "judgment call." Was the official clearly wrong in disqualifying Lee? NO because in his apparent judgment the infraction was flagrant, and he thought he observed the entire action. Was the ejection mandatory, I don't think so. Read the definition of flagrant, and watch the video -- had he observed the entire actionI doubt he would have made the same decision; that is except for the fact and this is what I think was the deciding factor the refs knew about all of the pre-game hype and wanted to make certain that things never got out of hand. As I said above for that I commend them.
Bottom line: did they have to eject Lee? NO, was there sufficient justification for it? Yes.

 

[Merne Asplund]

As for the holding, I don't think there really is none. If you ever been to a game in person or don't watch the ball on a punt...this happens all the time....you are getting mugged down the field. ESPECIALLY on a 2v1 or 3v1...you are NEVER EVER going to get a holding call. The reason is that, he's facing two guys...he's getting over powered and pushed back. .

If you watch the video, Lee is trying to run away from the players, not towards the punt, and he is being assaulted. There are 2 arms that are hooked around him. It is unbelievable that this didn't draw a holding penalty.

The other part of this is half of that video happened after the whistle blew. Lee was trying to get away, but was being choked under the facemask–first by one Lion, then by the other. Its clear as day.

Yes, he deserved a personal foul, but I've seen a lot of scraps on the football field and never have I seen this simple of a fight warrant an ejection.

 

[AmishMafia]

Anyone here think that we should go back and look at what got Suh so angry? Maybe he had a good reason for stomping, I mean, accidentally losing balance, on EDS.

I don't care what the hell happened to Lee. You throw a punch, you get ejected. His biggest problem is that the ref went in to break it up and he tossed another punch. Whether he was trying to 'push him away' or trying to knock a tooth loose, it doesn't matter. It happened after the ref started to break them up and that will draw a penalty/ejection every time - as it should.

 

[PackwillBEback]

I read your post as well and I only agree with you in part. Apparently you did not read mine. In order to disqualify Lee two things were necessary: 1. the infraction had to be flagrant, and 2. the official declaring the disqualification must have observed the entire action.
First of all, as you point out, it was flagrant "in [your] opinion" an opinion which I do not share.
Second, it is highly unlikely that the ref "observed the entire action" or I doubt it would have been an ejection: a 15 yard penalty, absolutely, positively, without a doubt a fifteen yarder.
A disqualification in a case like this is a "judgment call." Was the official clearly wrong in disqualifying Lee? NO because in his apparent judgment the infraction was flagrant, and he thought he observed the entire action. Was the ejection mandatory, I don't think so. Read the definition of flagrant, and watch the video -- had he observed the entire actionI doubt he would have made the same decision; that is except for the fact and this is what I think was the deciding factor the refs knew about all of the pre-game hype and wanted to make certain that things never got out of hand. As I said above for that I commend them.
Bottom line: did they have to eject Lee? NO, was there sufficient justification for it? Yes.

1) The action was absolutely flagrant. Again, this is where the interpretations manual and the interpretations given by the officiating department in meetings, conference calls, publications, scrimmages, etc. are key to know. A punch like that at the face is deemed flagrant, no ifs, buts, or ands about it. There is no other way to rule it. A punch such as that is always going to be ruled flagrant if seen clearly.

2) You aren't right in your doubting. Why? Because there is 7 officials on the field. They are going to see this, especially on a punt since everything is wide open. The Back Judge is with the return man and has the area around the return man. The Field Judge on this particular play is not watching Lee and the blockers, he is also down with the Back Judge since the punt is to that side. He is picking up the blocking in front of it and to the right side of the return man (also looking for anybody stepping out of bounds). The Side Judge might see this, but he is more of a clean up on the play and might be looking up the field. The Line Judge DEFINITELY has this, especially the dead ball action as well as the Head Linesmen. The Headlines men definitely had the live ball action from start to finish. He is picking up the gunners and the blockers. Since they are engaged, he is not taking his eyes off this action. The Umpire additionally as the play clears is going downfield and since this ends up in the middle of the field he is picking this up. So on this play you have the Umpire, Head Linesmen, and Line Judge looking at this action. The Head Linesmen sees everything from snap to the end of the scuffle, the Umpire sees the end of the live ball action and the dead ball action. The Line Judge sees the end of the live ball action and the dead ball action. So you have three officials that have seen more than the entire action. The entire action doesn't mean the part he is being manhandled by the Lions. It means the personal foul act. As in, you have to see the whole punch. Not just his hand in the face of the Lions' player, but anyways you have at least one official that saw everything from snap to finish and two other officials that saw all the dead ball action. I would be my life on it that the entire action was observed because that is simply the mechanics on a scrimmage kick for 7-man officiating.

3) You are right. A disqualification is pretty much always a judgement call, unless they do something such as come off the sideline to participate in a fight, strike an official, or do something absolutely outrageous. You are right they must deem it flagrant and that is a judgement call. However, they base that judgement off the interpretations given by the NFL officiating department and everything they had learned up to that point. So yes it is judgement, but they really don't have free reign. They have pretty stringent guidelines.

4) You are right, nothing required them to eject Lee or even flag him. However, if they didn't, you better believe they are going to get marked down for it and get hammered by the evaluators. Last thing an up and coming Line Judge wants is to find himself in the bottom % of officials on their evaluations because his NFL career will be over. Contrary to hysteria, NFL officials are held to an extremely high regard, the highest out of any sport. There is no union like MLB that you cannot be fired unless you do something ridiculous or are clearly not capable of being an official. In the NFL, if you don't perform, you are done as an official. This includes enforcing their rules, and more importantly their interpretations and mechanics.

 

[PackwillBEback]

Thanx for making that more clear. I understand.
The rules or interpretations should be changed IMO to prevent holds like that.
Would you agree that it is an unfair situation?

I would agree. Because the fact of the matter is an advantage is being gained. IF no advantage is gained, then really it shouldn't be penalized. However, there is nothing Lee can do to get out of this situation. He is in no position and has absolutely no opportunity to try and fight this situation and be able to perform on the football field.

An advantage is gained by the Lions...and an unfair one too. Unfair advantage=should be flagged.

 

[News Bot]

Green Bay Packers cornerback Pat Lee said Wednesday getting ejected for apparently throwing a punch against the Detroit Lions Thanksgiving Day may cost him $15,000.

Source: JSOnline.com

 

[longtimefan]

Wow 15000...Woody got 10000, didnt get ejected and the punch went to the mid section if I recall..

 

[Dan115]

WOW I never thought that much. I must NOT have seen the whole incident.

 

[7thFloorRA]

His richer teammates will take care of him. I didn't think they would give him much of a fine after watching the 2 lions mug him after the whistle like that.

 

[okcpackerfan]

His richer teammates will take care of him. I didn't think they would give him much of a fine after watching the 2 lions mug him after the whistle like that.

I wonder how much truth there is to that statement? You would like to think everyone chips in on fines like this but money is a powerful thing.

 

[Forget Favre]

Even though it was explained that the refs may have seen the mugging by the Lions players and lets them somehow get away with it, I hope Pat Lee appeals and wins.

 

[longtimefan]

merging threads