Question?

[Zero2Cool]

were phenomenal athletes who were marginal football players. <-- sums up the Packers pretty nicely

 

[DakotaT]

I would rather go through a 4-12 season losing close games but everyone busting *** for those 4 wins, than what we had with the Sherman/Slowick Packers of 04-05. That team personified softness, and I could hardly stomach watching them anymore towards the end of the season. Moss wiping his *** on our goal post was the final straw and sealed Sherman's fate.

If this rebuilding/retooling takes another year, so be it, but we are on the right road.

Depack you make a good point about the drought and what a treat it was just to get to the playoffs, but I'll counter with Holmgren took us back to the promised land, so we got spoiled again. To me Sherman just teased us and let us down.

 

[DePack]

I hear ya' digs but give me wins. I don't care if we have the softest team in the world if we win. Forrest Gregg's teams were "tough". How did that work out? Although they were entertaining, they were one of the laughingstocks of the league.

Tough/snuff.....give me a team wearing tutus (Da' Bears) as long as they win.

I do agree with your premise though USUALLY toughness equates to a better team and soft equates to a weaker team, but that obviously wasn't the case with respect to Gregg or Sherman.

 

[digsthepack]

You forget to mention that Forrest is arguably the worst coach in Packers history. Sherman, while at least competent as a coach, lacked toughness, accountability, a willingness to keep it floored with a lead, and consistently displayed poor gametime management. He had talent to start...depleted it through horrible drafts...always swinging for the fences while willingly passing up singles, doubles and triples.....and had in the end exactly what he created.....a weak, soft, paper thin roster.

 

[warhawk]

TT has shown he is light years ahead of MS when it comes to drafting young talent. He has definately excelled at this part of his job.

That's crazy. In 2 years he has drafted 1 guy who really contributed. Giving him credit for Hawk is insane. It's because our team sucked so bad lastyear that we were in the spot to take him. Sherman never had the luxury of Drafting #5 because the Packers won year after year


Yes we won every year under Sherman. Less and less and less. I do not recall ONE year in there where we actually improved the personnel on the team.

Year in, year out, we went out there with a little less than the year before and Sherman relied on BF to pull his fat out of the frying pan more.

If you want to count quality draft picks here is a question for you.

How many starters do we currently have drafted in Mike Shermans tenure? Rather than make you go thru the roster I will give you the answer.

TWO. Barnett and Kampman.

Now I will tell you that every team out there that has done so little in bringing quality draft picks along over a five year period is probably not real competitive.

Anyone that cannot see that the reality of the damage done showed loud and clear in our playoff loss to Atlanta is blind. Someone responded to a previous post with TT coming in off a "championship year."

My ***. By who's definition? Yeah, we won the north but only fools could have believed that team was going to do anything in the playoffs. By that game we were a shell of our previous teams. Slowick, Blowick.

Give the guy a break. He's had one season and two drafts to put back together what Humpty Dumpty broke into pieces over five years.

 

[calicheesehead]

Let's face it....Favre will be retiring sooner than later. For the success of this team, before a new QB is installed, the team around that new QB needs to be solid. Our D does seem much better than it has in years(on paper at least). Besides the D we need a solid O-Line and running game before we hand it over to the new QB. The running game will go nowhere without a quality OL. Granted our new rookie guards may be great by the time the season starts but this would be the exception. More than likely they will continue to get better as the season continues. I can handle our WR group, and I can handle our RB group, but to have the OL we currently have with the cap room we had/have, is the major negative I have with TT. I think that he has drafted well but in regards to not getting a quality kicker and/or guard during the beginning of FA is inexcusable, or until the OL gels.If our OL does not improve over last year, and Favre retires after this upcoming year, the new QB will be in trouble due to all the pressure they will face...that is, no play action because the run game's weak, no pass protection etc...I certainly hope that we can get some other mid level guard by training camp, because to rest our laurels on the rookies is a major gamble, way more that paying a bit to get a solid FA.

 

[DePack]

True......free agency is the great equalizer. No excuses.....win NOW!!!!!

 

[Zero2Cool]

True......free agency is the great equalizer. No excuses.....win NOW!!!!!

AND FOREVER BEAT THE VIKINGS, LIONS, BEARS OH MY!!

 

[paxvogel]

Too early to tell but a B-. I like the drafts but should have done more to fix OL with free agency

 

[digsthepack]

pax...good to see you again. Any interesting prospects coming up in Razorback country?

 

[pyledriver80]

Too early to tell but a B-. I like the drafts but should have done more to fix OL with free agency

All this talk about a SOFT team under Sherman is ridiculous. As DePack said soft or not, we were winning more games than we were losing up until last year. Now I don't so much care that we got rid of Sherman, but at least he gave us some exciting years and playoff appearences.


Sherman certainly wasn't a genius by any means but I personally think TT is making to many careless mistakes. I can't quite figure out for the life of me why a team would try to rebuild the O-line and the Wr's at the same time. It's clearly a lack of forsight on TT's part.

Just keep reading Lare's post over and over again because he points out several things that rightfully should be put on TT's shoulders.......Accountability, not excuses please!

 

[Anubis]

I agree....and I'm HOPING TT accomplishes that, but I'm older than you guys......I lived through the 70's and 80's. Rebuilding doesn't always work out. Just ask the Lions, Cards, Saints etc

True. However, drafting a wideout in the first round three years in a row (a la Detroit) isn't exactly what I call "rebuilding". To have a successful football team, you also need competent management.

In regards to the dark times Packer fans endured in the 70's and 80's, keep in mind that that was before the new CBA, FA, salary cap and revenue sharing. These things have ensured that all teams have a chance at the Super Bowl any given year, and have contributed to making the NFL the premier sports league in the world.

GO PACK!!!

Robert C. Hedley

 

[Anubis]

All this talk about a SOFT team under Sherman is ridiculous. As DePack said soft or not, we were winning more games than we were losing up until last year. Now I don't so much care that we got rid of Sherman, but at least he gave us some exciting years and playoff appearences.

Sherman certainly wasn't a genius by any means but I personally think TT is making to many careless mistakes. I can't quite figure out for the life of me why a team would try to rebuild the O-line and the Wr's at the same time. It's clearly a lack of forsight on TT's part.

Just keep reading Lare's post over and over again because he points out several things that rightfully should be put on TT's shoulders.......Accountability, not excuses please!

Pyle,

I have never implied TT has been perfect. He has done several things I liked, and several that I have completely disagreed with. Personally, I do not want to get into a TT vs. Sherman thing, as TT is the GM now and the future hinges on what he can do, regardless of what kind of mess MS may or may not have left us in.

IMO, TT is trying his best to shore up the defense so when Favre retires, his replacement won't feel he has to do it all by himself. However, as you stated, he needs to improve the OL. We can get by with a top 10 defense, a mediocre QB and a strong running game. However, TT is going to have to make some moves to ensure this is the case. If he does not, we may have a top 10 defense, but we will have no offense of any kind to back it up.

TT should be held accountable... I can't think of any reason why he shouldn't. But to get out the tar and feathers after one injury-plagues season is a little premature.

GO PACK!!!

Robert C. Hedley

 

[porky88]

All this talk about a SOFT team under Sherman is ridiculous. As DePack said soft or not, we were winning more games than we were losing up until last year. Now I don't so much care that we got rid of Sherman, but at least he gave us some exciting years and playoff appearences.

I agree with this. I don't think we were a soft team. Sherman was a good coach. 3 division titles and 4 playoffs in 6 years is very solid. Sherman was a very bad GM though.

Sherman certainly wasn't a genius by any means but I personally think TT is making to many careless mistakes. I can't quite figure out for the life of me why a team would try to rebuild the O-line and the Wr's at the same time. It's clearly a lack of forsight on TT's part.

TT isn't making careless mistakes. Because of the careless contracts Sherman worked out (Robert Ferguson, Joe Johnson, KGB, Cledius Hunt) GB didn't have the money too resign Rivera or Wahle. TT offered Wahle a contract, he went to Carolina for more money. GB could not compete with Carolina in terms of the contract. Unfortunately, Wahle was due a huge roster bonus and had to get released.

Just keep reading Lare's post over and over again because he points out several things that rightfully should be put on TT's shoulders.......Accountability, not excuses please!

TT has had 1 season as the GB GM and most of the team was build up of Mike Sherman's players, not his. It's far to early to judge on how good Ted Thomson is doing. In fact even after this year it's still too early. It usually takes 2-4 years to get your team built. 2 years from now we'll be able to give a fair assessment on Ted Thompson as the GM of Green Bay. He's on a 3 year contract, I won't be suprised too see him get a 1 year extension and then if it's not fixed by then, then he's done.

 

[DePack]

I agree....and I'm HOPING TT accomplishes that, but I'm older than you guys......I lived through the 70's and 80's. Rebuilding doesn't always work out. Just ask the Lions, Cards, Saints etc

True. However, drafting a wideout in the first round three years in a row (a la Detroit) isn't exactly what I call "rebuilding". To have a successful football team, you also need competent management.

In regards to the dark times Packer fans endured in the 70's and 80's, keep in mind that that was before the new CBA, FA, salary cap and revenue sharing. These things have ensured that all teams have a chance at the Super Bowl any given year, and have contributed to making the NFL the premier sports league in the world.

GO PACK!!!

Robert C. Hedley

When did we draft a WR in the first round 3 straight years. Without doing research the only WR I remember Sherman drafting in the first round was Walker, which prove to be a great pick. I could be wrong though.

 

[Zero2Cool]

I agree....and I'm HOPING TT accomplishes that, but I'm older than you guys......I lived through the 70's and 80's. Rebuilding doesn't always work out. Just ask the Lions, Cards, Saints etc

True. However, drafting a wideout in the first round three years in a row (a la Detroit) isn't exactly what I call "rebuilding". To have a successful football team, you also need competent management.

In regards to the dark times Packer fans endured in the 70's and 80's, keep in mind that that was before the new CBA, FA, salary cap and revenue sharing. These things have ensured that all teams have a chance at the Super Bowl any given year, and have contributed to making the NFL the premier sports league in the world.

GO PACK!!!

Robert C. Hedley

When did we draft a WR in the first round 3 straight years. Without doing research the only WR I remember Sherman drafting in the first round was Walker, which prove to be a great pick. I could be wrong though.

I think he's saying you can't count the Lions as a rebuilding team due to them drafting a WR three years in a row in the first round. And the 'competent' part I think is him saying the Lions Matt Millen & Co are fools.

 

[all about da packers]

Great thread guys and gals, THANK YOU for not starting to go at each others throats.

If I remember correctly, didn't Whale want out of GB? If this is true, I guess TT can't be blamed for really not resigning Whale, because you can't sign a player to play for a team he doesn't want to.

 

[Bruce]

TT isn't making careless mistakes. Because of the careless contracts Sherman worked out (Robert Ferguson, Joe Johnson, KGB, Cledius Hunt) GB didn't have the money too resign Rivera or Wahle. TT offered Wahle a contract, he went to Carolina for more money. GB could not compete with Carolina in terms of the contract. Unfortunately, Wahle was due a huge roster bonus and had to get released.

I have not got time to jump into this thread with a complete response, but I though it important to remind you that Wahle claims that Ted Thompson would not engage in talks with his agent (they called several times in the months and weeks leading up to his leaving for Carolina) and only made a token offer after releasing him and waiting for Carolina and several teams to call with offers that made Ted's token offer look like the face saving joke that it was. Wahle has consistently said that he never thought for a second that he would not need to renegotiate before his signing bonus and thought for sure it would be keep him or Rivera -- he never for a moment thought GB would let both leave.

It is too early to see if Ted recklessly throws money at players -- we have not seen Woodson and his huge contract at any of the workouts and it sure has had a negative effect upon Harris's attitude and work ethic. Further Kampman (knock on wood) has yet to take a snap with his new mega-contract. Remember everyone thought Joe Johnson (who was only 28 at the time) was a top 5 DE when Sherman rolled the dice and signed him. An injury can change things quite fast. Some would argue that signing Driver to a new contract while still under contract set a bad precident and involved risk given his age.

We went from a playoff team to 4 - 12 under Ted, I am willing to give him time, but think he should be judged by his decisions and the teams performance -- like any GM. So far it has been far from impressive.

 

[longtimefan]

This was also Mikes team, can not lay all the blame on TT..

I still find it hard to believe how TT, and the front office would have made it work where BOTH sides were happy..

I did not like the Woodson signing because of the $$$ he got, not because of the player he is...Any player that gets a huge pay day can get hurt, and it will bite ANY team in the a@@...But that is the chances teams take and have to deal with it if it happens...





Wahle also said that AT THE TIME Brett's non decision played a huge part...Mike had a chance to get some BIG $$ and with Brett not announcing anything it made Mikes choice easier..


http://www.packersnews.com/archives/new ... 3598.shtml

Wahle has expressed a desire to remain with the Packers, but there are several factors that could change that between now and March. If Favre retires, Wahle might not want to hang around Green Bay for what could be a lean, rebuilding period.

“That will make a difference,â€

 

[Bruce]

Wahle's contract with Carolina was structured in such a way that it would have easily fit into the Packers' budget (8 million is spread out over the life of the contract -- it is pretty simple math). You can post articles speculating about what Wahle might be thinking or you can go to his quotes saying he expected to be resigned by the Packers and is confident if Sherman had remained GM a deal would have easily been reached.

This was also Mikes team, can not lay all the blame on TT..

I still find it hard to believe how TT, and the front office would have made it work where BOTH sides were happy..

I did not like the Woodson signing because of the $$$ he got, not because of the player he is...Any player that gets a huge pay day can get hurt, and it will bite ANY team in the a@@...But that is the chances teams take and have to deal with it if it happens...





Wahle also said that AT THE TIME Brett's non decision played a huge part...Mike had a chance to get some BIG $$ and with Brett not announcing anything it made Mikes choice easier..


http://www.packersnews.com/archives/new ... 3598.shtml

Wahle has expressed a desire to remain with the Packers, but there are several factors that could change that between now and March. If Favre retires, Wahle might not want to hang around Green Bay for what could be a lean, rebuilding period.

“That will make a difference,â€

 

[Zero2Cool]

Great thread guys and gals, THANK YOU for not starting to go at each others throats.

If I remember correctly, didn't Whale want out of GB? If this is true, I guess TT can't be blamed for really not resigning Whale, because you can't sign a player to play for a team he doesn't want to.

He expressed his lack of interest playing for a Packers team without Brett during an interview in the lockeroom after a game.

Wahle couldn't have been kept unless a really sweet deal for the Packers that would have put Wahle's 'family future' at stake if he'd gotten injured.

 

[longtimefan]

2.7 cap hit for 2005..

http://asp.usatoday.com/sports/football ... layer=2382

I have seen many many posts, and articles about the Wahle issue, and maybe I am an idiot, but for the life of me, I can not see how a 2.7 cap hit would have fit in the Packers cap in 2005...

sure the $$ were there a few weeks later and that is how they got some of those other so called players..but it didnt help the team when they needed to make a choice on to sign him or not to sign him.

I am not trying to be a jerk here...but I honestly can not see how they could have kept him...Looking back at it now I can see how it could have been done, but we are talking at the time that a decision HAD to be made the money was not there..

Hindsight is 20/20 ( btw who came up with that phrase)

 

[Bruce]

One of the great myths is that the Packers were in CAP Hell. Cap hell is not changed to being among the most room in a single season. There are many ways that the Wahle situation could have been easily handled -- Ted Thompson made no effort.

It was a choice, and his right to make the choice. He publically said that Guards were among the easiest positions to replace -- he had it blow up in his face. He is accountable for that choice and it played a huge factor in the Packers falling from among the top teams in the league and an annual contender to the bottom of the division and a contender for the first pick in the draft.

Longtimefan, you are far from an idiot. You are offering an opinion based upon how you saw it -- I saw it different. At the time I defended Ted's decision, in retrospect it was a disaster. If that were his only poor decision it would be easier to feel confident in his leadership, but he followed it with a series of poor choices.

2.7 cap hit for 2005..

http://asp.usatoday.com/sports/football ... layer=2382

I have seen many many posts, and articles about the Wahle issue, and maybe I am an idiot, but for the life of me, I can not see how a 2.7 cap hit would have fit in the Packers cap in 2005...

sure the $$ were there a few weeks later and that is how they got some of those other so called players..but it didnt help the team when they needed to make a choice on to sign him or not to sign him.

I am not trying to be a jerk here...but I honestly can not see how they could have kept him...Looking back at it now I can see how it could have been done, but we are talking at the time that a decision HAD to be made the money was not there..

Hindsight is 20/20 ( btw who came up with that phrase)

 

[longtimefan]

I fully agree it did blow up in his face and I recall him saying that guards were easy to replace/or not WORTH the same amount as tackles..

But I can't put the entire blame on just him..He has people he takes advice from just like your boss in the real world....What he does with that advice is another matter..

I know that Brandt has a huge hand in how contracts are done..maybe he had a hard time getting something to fit with Wahle...

But TT does have the power to say do what ever it takes..

 

[Bruce]

I fully agree it did blow up in his face and I recall him saying that guards were easy to replace/or not WORTH the same amount as tackles..

But I can't put the entire blame on just him..He has people he takes advice from just like your boss in the real world....What he does with that advice is another matter..

I know that Brandt has a huge hand in how contracts are done..maybe he had a hard time getting something to fit with Wahle...

But TT does have the power to say do what ever it takes..

Your points are well taken, but Wahle and his agent say Ted showed no interest and made no effort -- that is completely on TT.