Play-it-safe Thompson holds back the Packers

warhawk

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Who cares about Randy Moss, I wish we could have kept Javon Walker. I just wonder what the Packers would be like with J-Walk, and DD. Could the Packers have signed M.Whale and drafted Colledge, Spitz a few years later?

If you have HOF qb, with a great arm, and a coach who loves to throw, why not focus on that, and build on it.

Uh, maybe because the coach at the time had no clue HOW to build or to take what he had to the top?

You do realize, I hope, that HAD we bent over and paid Walker there DEFINATELY would have been no money left for Wahle, or, the waterboy for that matter.

That cursed CAP get's in the way of so many dreams.

Look. It's fairly simple. We HAD a coach who HAD an offense without many contract issues for several years who allowed the defense, however, to ERODE seriously to crap. What good does it do if you have QB that can throw the damn ball if you can't STOP ANYBODY.

How long did you need to see he was not building on ****! He spent all the money and we.... got worse.

Unless somehow, someway, going from 12-4 to 10-6 and jacked out of the playoffs at home is building on something or I am missing something? PLEASE give me something, ANYTHING, once and for all that shows me that Mike SHERMAN had this team going in the RIGHT DIRECTION.

Mike Sherman should thank Ted Thompson every day of his life for deflecting all the criticism for the 4-12 season onto TT because why again? Oh yeah, that's right because he was THERE!. Of course. It doesn't matter that the PLAYERS were still Shermans or even that he was still the coach that year.

But of course if we had just left him there we would be heading in the right direction for sure.

I think I would have seen it rain cows first.
 

Bertram

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One should not forget that it was Mike Sherman's bad communication skills, especially with Javon Walker, that led to the situation we had with Javon Walker.

It's easy to say now that we should have payed Walker the big bucks, because we should have. However many, including me, were not so confident Walker was the real deal rather than just a one year fluke at the time.
 

MassPackersFan

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I was under the impression that Walker was extremely pissed off and playing the racism card because the WR coach wasn't considered for OC, iirc. Maybe I have the coach and the coaching position screwed up... it was a while ago and I've almost forgotten that we had Walker.
 

Greg C.

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I was under the impression that Walker was extremely pissed off and playing the racism card because the WR coach wasn't considered for OC, iirc. Maybe I have the coach and the coaching position screwed up... it was a while ago and I've almost forgotten that we had Walker.

I don't remember that. Possibly you are getting this mixed up with the Mike McKenzie fiasco, in which McKenzie was allegedly angry about the hiring of Kurt Schottenheimer as DB coach over Lionel Washington.
 

Bertram

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Mike Sherman communicated poorly with WR Javon Walker - creating a bad relationship between Walker and the Packers and later forcing Ted Thompson's hand in trading Walker to the Denver Broncos for a 2nd round draft pick.
 

MassPackersFan

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Greg C. said:
I was under the impression that Walker was extremely pissed off and playing the racism card because the WR coach wasn't considered for OC, iirc. Maybe I have the coach and the coaching position screwed up... it was a while ago and I've almost forgotten that we had Walker.

I don't remember that. Possibly you are getting this mixed up with the Mike McKenzie fiasco, in which McKenzie was allegedly angry about the hiring of Kurt Schottenheimer as DB coach over Lionel Washington.

Doh! You're right. Brain fart of the month for me.
 

Pack93z

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Mike Sherman communicated poorly with WR Javon Walker - creating a bad relationship between Walker and the Packers and later forcing Ted Thompson's hand in trading Walker to the Denver Broncos for a 2nd round draft pick.

I remember it a little different... it was the 05' offseason in which Thompson was in charge where is contract became an issue. Walker came back to play after a holdout type deal and got hurt 1st game against the Lions. Then last offseason it boiled over with the trade.

Sherman would have caved and gave in, Thompson played hard ball. Which wasn't bad, but I think Ted learned from that with the Harris deal this offseason. Ante up with the players if the contract is undervalued.

Again... IMO.
 

Bertram

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That was when the contract issue became official, it was an issue already during the 2004 season. This I know.
 

Pack93z

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That was when the contract issue became official, it was an issue already during the 2004 season. This I know.

So if Sherman was relieved of duties in January after the 04' season, how can that be hung on him?
 

Bertram

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Because he communicated poorly with Walker from the start and it created a bad relationship between the Packers organisation and Walker.
 

Bertram

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However I have already pointed out it was a bad move to let Walker walk.

The reason why he was allowed to walk was that he had only had 1 good season (with Brett Favre) and was injured the entire next season. He wanted the big bucks but Thompson didn't want to take a chance on him because he wasn't sure Walker was the real deal.

It's easy to sit here now and say he should have done it.
 

MassPackersFan

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I remember Walker being pretty jaded before official word of the story got out too. It definitely wasn't handled business-like.
 

Pack93z

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Because he communicated poorly with Walker from the start and it created a bad relationship between the Packers organisation and Walker.

I am in no way shape a Sherman fan, but to give Ted a free pass on this one... hmmm I disagree.

McKenzie was all on Sherman and his coaching buddy system in the secondary. But I don't remember once where Walker was screaming about his contract in 04. That was his first productive year.

But I might be getting too old...

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Bertram

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That's because he wasn't screaming about his contract, he was beginning to grumble.

I'm not giving Thompson a free pass, I think it was a bad move to let Walker walk as I've said.

However Sherman created a difficult situation which you only can deal with in one way. Thompson did the right choice for the Packers because rewarding holdouts create more holdouts. Every Packer should know that if they hold out they will never play another game in a Packer uniform.
 

MassPackersFan

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Thompson shows up and one of the first things he has to deal with is a #1 WR who wants a lot more money 2 years before his contract expires, while also dealing with cap hell, and the negative aura around the Walker issue (see Sherman, Walker, Favre, etc.). Plus, if he sets a precedent to caving in, we may have been looking at a Harris/Barnett holdout, which, if we caved, would probably have cost us much more than the civil negotiations yielded with both players recently.

I'm upset about the Walker situation, but I direct it at him. He didn't want to play for us, for whatever reason (he never specified). Good riddance. Screw him. Seriously.
 

warhawk

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Thompson shows up and one of the first things he has to deal with is a #1 WR who wants a lot more money 2 years before his contract expires, while also dealing with cap hell, and the negative aura around the Walker issue (see Sherman, Walker, Favre, etc.). Plus, if he sets a precedent to caving in, we may have been looking at a Harris/Barnett holdout, which, if we caved, would probably have cost us much more than the civil negotiations yielded with both players recently.

I'm upset about the Walker situation, but I direct it at him. He didn't want to play for us, for whatever reason (he never specified). Good riddance. Screw him. Seriously.

I'm right there with you. Screw Javon Walker.

If he had shutup and just played he would still be a Packer and getting paid just like he is now. He started this crap TWO YEARS out after having only one good season with a generous contract that was top heavy in the early years. The years he basically did squat.

The guy get's hurt, won't rehab at the Packer facility, starts chirping for money AGAIN only this time his agent says "we want something done before the season" and then does a complete about face a month later.

Put that on whoever you want but I call ******** on Javon Walker.
 

Arles

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Bertram said:
Mike Sherman communicated poorly with WR Javon Walker - creating a bad relationship between Walker and the Packers and later forcing Ted Thompson's hand in trading Walker to the Denver Broncos for a 2nd round draft pick.

I remember it a little different... it was the 05' offseason in which Thompson was in charge where is contract became an issue. Walker came back to play after a holdout type deal and got hurt 1st game against the Lions. Then last offseason it boiled over with the trade.

Sherman would have caved and gave in, Thompson played hard ball. Which wasn't bad, but I think Ted learned from that with the Harris deal this offseason. Ante up with the players if the contract is undervalued.

Again... IMO.
Actually, TT had just became GM and Walker wanted him to tear up his final two seasons and give him a new contract. TT said no, it wasn't his normal practice and Walker talked about holding out.

Then, Favre came in and said that players with several years left on their contract should honor their deal, and if they want a raise, they should go about it behind the scenes and not hold out. Then, Walker got hurt and blamed Brett, TT, city of Green Bay and I think even the inventor of cheese and asked to be traded.

Here's a direct quote from Charles Goldsmith, Jevon's stepfather in March of last year:

“They could give him a $15 million signing bonus and he would decline it,” Charles Goldsmith said. “I think everybody is thinking it’s going to blow over and Javon’s going to show up. He’s not showing up. I mean, he is absolutely not showing up. Period. At all.”

“Javon is not fond of Brett,” Goldsmith said. “All that stuff on the field when they score touchdowns and they’re high-fiving, that’s for show. He just doesn’t want to play with him anymore.

“Last year, Brett Favre did something that I thought was wrong. I wish someone would tell Brett, ‘What if someone blasted one of your daughters on national TV? What would you do?’

Once Walker got hurt, there was no way GB could keep him. He was going to blame the Packers for his injury. Had he stayed healthy and had a good season, I'm guessing GB would have extended him in the offseason and he would still be here. Just like they did with Harris, Barnett, Kampman and many others. He just wanted a new deal midway through his rookie contract and that is a somewhat unprecedented request.
 

warhawk

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It was not only an unprecedented request it was ******** the Packers big time. He was front end loaded and basically getting paid way over his value the first few years. Rather than finish it out which would have ended up fair for all he wanted the lower end of the last couple of years redone.

That's called GREED. It's ironic that the greedy bastard called out BF who was the one that tolerated him the first couple of years and MADE him the third year. The year all of a sudden he thought he was all that.

Brett knew EXACTLY where this deal was at and wouldn't back Walker which pissed him off. I say so what. Brett was right on his position and told it like it was. Honor your contract which was essentially saying the deal was fair overall. I agree.
 

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Greg C. said:
Pack93z: You very well may be right about Thompson being doomed by overcautiousness. His record in Seattle does show that he got some solid players, but the team did not take its leap until the year after he left and they brought in some free agents. Possibly Thompson was planning on doing that anyway, but I doubt it.

I would caution you, though, about judging Thompson too early. We have another thread going where somebody is criticizing the Harrell pick as "risky" because of Harrell's injury history. So by that standard, I guess that if Harrell becomes a difference-maker, Thompson's picking him will be seen as a "bold move." Often the bold moves are the ones that are viewed as stupid or boring at the time. Reggie White and Brett Favre were fantastic acquisitions by Wolf (and Reggie's signing was anything but boring), but those sorts of things don't come along very often. What bold moves did the Patriots make before they won their first Super Bowl? I honestly can't think of any. They didn't start going after big-name free agents until after they'd won their first championship.


2005 Seattle Seahawks Transactions

Which of these free agent acquisitions after Ted left Seattle were the ones that propelled them to the SuperBowl? Or could it have had more to do with them playing a rather weak NFC West division -- along with the maturation of players like Alexander and Hasselbeck?


To be perfectly honest, I think most fans would just be content if TT showed he could build a winning team some time in his career.

Seattle was under .500 while he was there.

Green Bay is under .500 since he's been here.


And before everyone races to be the first one to call me a "TT-Basher", as I've said before I'm not a TT anything, I'm a Packer fan. I don't care who does it, I don't care how he does it, I don't care if he puts us in salary cap hell, I don't care if if builds through the draft, I don't care if he uses young players, I don't care if he uses veteran FAs, I don't care if Favre is QB, I don't care if Ingle Martin is QB.

All I want is for someone to get Green Bay to win more games than they lose. And when they do, I'll be that person's biggest supporter. And when they don't, I won't think they are doing a very good job.


First of all, the information is incorrect.

Ted was in Seattle as Vice President of Football Operations , not GM, from 2000-2004. During Thompsons time in Seattle, The Seahawks advanced to the playoffs in two of the five seasons there with several players Thompson helped acquired through the draft. Some of the notable players Thompson selected in his tenure with the Seahawks were running back Shaun Alexander, kicker Josh Brown, guard Steve Hutchinson, and wide receiver Darrell Jackson, cornerbacks Marcus Trufant and Ken Lucas, safeties Ken Hamlin and Michael Boulware.

Their records in those years were

2000 6 - 10
2001 9 - 7
2002 7 - 9
2003 10 - 6
2004 9 - 7

Unless my math skills are failing me, that would be a record of 41 - 39. Even if you count 2 early playoff exits, that would be 41 - 41 -- Not under .500
 

Greg C.

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Greg C. said:
Pack93z: You very well may be right about Thompson being doomed by overcautiousness. His record in Seattle does show that he got some solid players, but the team did not take its leap until the year after he left and they brought in some free agents. Possibly Thompson was planning on doing that anyway, but I doubt it.


2005 Seattle Seahawks Transactions

Which of these free agent acquisitions after Ted left Seattle were the ones that propelled them to the SuperBowl? Or could it have had more to do with them playing a rather weak NFC West division -- along with the maturation of players like Alexander and Hasselbeck?

Point taken, Packfan, and much thanks for the link. Certainly the weak division and the maturation of core players were the biggest factors. I do see a few significant free agents in there, though. I think CB Kelly Herndon and LB Jamie Sharper started, didn't they? And WR Joe Jurevicius was a nice complementary player. I'm not sure if it would be fair to count T Walter Jones, as he was already with the team.
 

pyledriver80

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Bertram said:
Because he communicated poorly with Walker from the start and it created a bad relationship between the Packers organisation and Walker.

I am in no way shape a Sherman fan, but to give Ted a free pass on this one... hmmm I disagree.

McKenzie was all on Sherman and his coaching buddy system in the secondary. But I don't remember once where Walker was screaming about his contract in 04. That was his first productive year.

But I might be getting too old...

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Great work
 

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