more on the injury issue

[Carl]

Creatine is supposed to let you get out an extra few lifting reps when normally you would reach fatigue and failure. It adds water weight and the rash of baseball hamstring injures over 10 years ago were attributed to it. I don't think the benefit of getting a few extra reps in the gym is worth potentially missing time on the field.

I have said many times before that I only have 2 issues...1 with the Athletic Training staff and 1 with the Strength Staff.

It seems like the ACL rehabs take FOREVER in Green Bay compared to other teams. I am very interested to see how Bulaga's rehab goes. It sounded like he only had an ACL injury and not all of the other additional things that tend to occur along with it. If he isn't back for day one of training camp I will renew my concerns over this issue.

As for the Strength Staff....I put the hamstrings on them. It wasn't just one or two or three it was a lot and more than half the defensive backs all had them this year. Being a CSCS and trying to use some deductive reasoning.....it is my theory that Lovat is having them do some exercises that are making the quad to hamstring strength ratio too quad dominant. I don't like the new found love for the front squat for this reason. IMO....back squat with full ROM, dead lift, physioball hamstring curls and maximal backward sprints are the way to keep those hammy's in shape. I have only had 2 athletes injure theirs in 8 years....1 was day to day and it was from lunging at first base and awkwardly hitting it out of stride and the other was pretty mild and a 2 week return to full go deal.

ACL rehab centers around strengthening the knee and regaining range of motion lost with the injury and surgery.

The new ACL is a tendon molded into the shape of a ligament and put into the place. The tendon needs time to adjust to loading and become more like a ligament in order to handle the knee stresses. Can't do much about that other than wait and make sure to not overdue it. Since Bulaga currently isn't missing any game time, I'm perfectly okay if they are cautious to not cause another tear.

Also, there have been no definitive conclusions drawn on the safety of creatine according to research.


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[JBlood]

I have to very strongly disagree about the benefits of creatine as a systematic review by the Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition says otherwise. A systematic review is an article that compiles data from lots of studies it deems well done and it's the highest level of evidence in research.

http://www.jissn.com/content/9/1/33

"Regardless of the form, supplementation with creatine has regularly shown to increase strength, fat free mass, and muscle morphology with concurrent heavy resistance training more than resistance training alone. Creatine may be of benefit in other modes of exercise such as high-intensity sprints or endurance training. Even though not all individuals respond similarly to creatine supplementation, it is generally accepted that its supplementation increases creatine storage and promotes a faster regeneration of adenosine triphosphate between high intensity exercises. These improved outcomes will increase performance and promote greater training adaptations. More recent research suggests that creatine supplementation in amounts of 0.1 g/kg of body weight combined with resistance training improves training adaptations at a cellular and sub-cellular level"

very good review article on creatine. I'm particularly interested in the following:


"Effects of creatine supplementation on range of motion
Sculthorpe et al (2010) has shown that a 5 day (25g/d) loading protocol of creatine supplementation followed by a further 3 days of 5 g/d negatively influence both active ankle dorsiflexion and shoulder abduction and extension range of movement (ROM) in young men. There are two possible theories to explain these effects: 1) Creatine supplementation increases intracellular water content resulting in increased muscle stiffness and resistance to stretch; 2) Neural outflow from the muscle spindles is affected due to an increased volume of the muscle cell. The authors highlight that the active ROM measures were taken immediately after the loading phase and the reduced active ROM may not be seen after several weeks of maintenance phase45]. Hile et al 46] observed an increase in compartment pressure in the anterior compartment of the lower leg, which may also have been responsible for a reduced active ROM."

A decreased ROM or increased muscle stiffness with creatine use certainly could lead to increased muscle pulls, wouldn't you agree? It appears that creatine is useful for weight lifters in particular. Maybe not so good for football players.

Also:
"It is prudent to note that creatine supplementation has been shown to reduce the body’s endogenous production of creatine, however levels return to normal after a brief period of time when supplementation ceases 1,6]. Despite this creatine supplementation has not been studied/supplemented with for a relatively long period. Due to this, long term effects are unknown, therefore safety cannot be guaranteed."

Good article. Thanks for posting it.

 

[Oshkoshpackfan]

All that info is good....BUT....if that was the case, wouldnt damn near every NFL player have creatine and injury issues. Our injury plague is something different. A combo of training staff and bad luck, plain and simple.

 

[Carl]

very good review article on creatine. I'm particularly interested in the following:


"Effects of creatine supplementation on range of motion
Sculthorpe et al (2010) has shown that a 5 day (25g/d) loading protocol of creatine supplementation followed by a further 3 days of 5 g/d negatively influence both active ankle dorsiflexion and shoulder abduction and extension range of movement (ROM) in young men. There are two possible theories to explain these effects: 1) Creatine supplementation increases intracellular water content resulting in increased muscle stiffness and resistance to stretch; 2) Neural outflow from the muscle spindles is affected due to an increased volume of the muscle cell. The authors highlight that the active ROM measures were taken immediately after the loading phase and the reduced active ROM may not be seen after several weeks of maintenance phase45]. Hile et al 46] observed an increase in compartment pressure in the anterior compartment of the lower leg, which may also have been responsible for a reduced active ROM."

A decreased ROM or increased muscle stiffness with creatine use certainly could lead to increased muscle pulls, wouldn't you agree? It appears that creatine is useful for weight lifters in particular. Maybe not so good for football players.

Also:
"It is prudent to note that creatine supplementation has been shown to reduce the body’s endogenous production of creatine, however levels return to normal after a brief period of time when supplementation ceases 1,6]. Despite this creatine supplementation has not been studied/supplemented with for a relatively long period. Due to this, long term effects are unknown, therefore safety cannot be guaranteed."

Good article. Thanks for posting it.

You're welcome. I'll agree that less ROM could lead to injury.

However, the review also sites studies that have not shown harm of creatine. I based my saying that there have been no definitive conclusions on the harms of creatine based on the review's conclusions.

"It is important to remain impartial when evaluating the safety of creatine ingested as a natural supplement. The available evidence indicates that creatine consumption is safe. This perception of safety cannot be guaranteed especially that of the long term safety of creatine supplementation and the various forms of creatine which are administered to different populations (athletes, sedentary, patient, active, young or elderly) throughout the globe."

Not saying whether it's safe or not, just that it hasn't been proven either way. Personally though, I wouldn't take it if I were a football player due to the studies that have shown harmful affect. The injury risk is high enough and I wouldn't want to possibly increase is.


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[Carl]

All that info is good....BUT....if that was the case, wouldnt damn near every NFL player have creatine and injury issues. Our injury plague is something different. A combo of training staff and bad luck, plain and simple.

Despite what evidence says, even in training and medical professions, people do believe opposing views for various reasons.

Plus, some guys wouldn't take it just because a dislike of supplements and I'm sure many wouldn't like the possible injury risk.


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[Oshkoshpackfan]

huh?

 

[7thFloorRA]

I have taken it. It screws with your hydration. There are 2 kinds that they can take IIRC, Creatine-Kinase and Creatine Monohydrate. I believe one was worse for hydration issues. Regardless of some of the studies (and its important to see Who paid for the studies to be done) I don't think the risk is worth the small reward in the gym. As someone said above, weightlifter yes....athlete no.

Creatine supplementation is kind of old news though so I am going to assume that is not the root of the hamstring issue.....though it does pop up in some other supplements as an ingredient. I am sticking with my theory of Quad dominance and not training the hamstring through a full and natural ROM.

 

[Carl]

huh?

I was saying that even though there are some things with strong evidence, people still may not believe them. Maybe they learned something else in school, have always done it a different way, or personal experience.
For example, doctors still use cortisone shots for tennis elbow even though evidence says it's crap. I bet some some coaches still a think creatine doesn't have any benefits.

Plus, I've known athletes who don't like to take supplements whether they are legal or not and some wouldn't want to risk a possible higher injury risk.

These are the reasons why I don't think every player would be taking creatine as you said earlier.


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[Oshkoshpackfan]

I too have been on an extreme regiment of monohydrate creatine in the recent past. Monohydrate dissolves better in water and can get into your system faster. I liked it better for the loading phase, two 5mg scoops per day for a week...then one 5mg scoop once per day. You do HAVE TO drink about 1 gallon of water per day while on a routine of creatine for proper absorbtion, otherwise it will dehydrate you. I saw VERY fast results. My strength on the bench went through the roof in just a few weeks and the amount of reps per set went up as well. I went from having 17" arms at the start of loading phase and at the end of two complete phases of creatine (6 months) I was at 21" arms. It works, IF you take it properly. Also, I never had any range of motion issues...I did cross fit as well as weights so I would have known.

 

[Carl]

I have taken it. It screws with your hydration. There are 2 kinds that they can take IIRC, Creatine-Kinase and Creatine Monohydrate. I believe one was worse for hydration issues. Regardless of some of the studies (and its important to see Who paid for the studies to be done) I don't think the risk is worth the small reward in the gym. As someone said above, weightlifter yes....athlete no.

Creatine supplementation is kind of old news though so I am going to assume that is not the root of the hamstring issue.....though it does pop up in some other supplements as an ingredient. I am sticking with my theory of Quad dominance and not training the hamstring through a full and natural ROM.

Eccentric hamstring exercises such as glute ham raises have been shown to reduce the risk of first time hamstring injuries. Eccentric activity is mostly what they do during running so that makes perfect sense.


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[JBlood]

All that info is good....BUT....if that was the case, wouldnt damn near every NFL player have creatine and injury issues. Our injury plague is something different. A combo of training staff and bad luck, plain and simple.

Bad luck for sure, maybe something to do with individual training regimes......how much control does the team have over players' workouts in the off season?

 

[7thFloorRA]

Thats why I always do the physioball hamstring curls. You get both the concentric and eccentric training through the full ROM. I cant say enough about that exercise.

 

[Carl]

Thats why I always do the physioball hamstring curls. You get both the concentric and eccentric training through the full ROM. I cant say enough about that exercise.

I'd hope the Packers are already doing them. For guys like Hayward and Matthews though who have already had them, maybe they would help, maybe not.


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[7thFloorRA]

Bad luck for sure, maybe something to do with individual training regimes......how much control does the team have over players' workouts in the off season?

an excellent point because these guys almost all have personal trainers they work with and you just have to hope that they are on the same page as Lovat.

 

[7thFloorRA]

I'd hope the Packers are already doing them. For guys like Hayward and Matthews though who have already had them, maybe they would help, maybe not.


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Hopefully they are. Its not like it is some exotic exercise. It is pretty basic and only requires the physioball and your body.