Making the Jump

[Deleted member 6794]

I think Jones and Hawk will show well if we get good production this year from Raji and Peppers, and continued improvement from Daniels, Boyd and Jones. Would be really nice to have a relatively decent year injury-wise. Capers has a lot of interesting tools to work with.

The DL lacks a big body or two to convince me they´ll be better at stopping the run. Peppers won´t be used in those situations, Daniels is too small to play in the base.

Something else to consider is that there at least 5-6 teams that will need to make cuts to veteran players to clear room for salary cap. There still is likely to be help available if we run into a pinch at ILB or DL.

I´d rather have someone already on the roster, maybe one of the undrafted rookies, step up than bring in a free agent at the end of training camp.

 

[Jordyruns]

Boyd is a big body now after the weight he put on. Thorton isn't bad (CJ Wilson like) it would be nice if they had one more 320 lber on the roster though, anyone know Worthys recent weight?


You also have to remember, Justin Smith is not a big body, but is disruptive like one. Size does not necessarily matter if you can be physically dominant. Don't think we have anyone like that on this roster though.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Boyd is a big body now after the weight he put on. Thorton isn't bad (CJ Wilson like) it would be nice if they had one more 320 lber on the roster though, anyone know Worthys recent weight?

Boyd is a big body, no doubt about that. I´m not totally sold on him though as he has only played 117 career snaps so far. Don´t know about Worthy´s current weight, he was listed last year about the same size as Wilson. He doesn´t seem to be as good a runner stopper though as Wilson.

You also have to remember, Justin Smith is not a big body, but is disruptive like one. Size does not necessarily matter if you can be physically dominant. Don't think we have anyone like that on this roster though.

It would be nice having someone like him on the roster, but we clearly don´t.

 

[Joe Nor Cal Packer]

Bakhtiari, Banjo, Barrington, Bostick, Boyd, Dorsey, Franklin, Harper, Harris, Hill, Hyde, Jones (Datone),
Lacy, Mulumba, Palmer, Stoneburner, Taylor (Lane), Tiller, Tretter, White (Myles).

Recognize this list? It’s a list of Packers heading into their second NFL season. As excited as we are about the draftees and UDFAs, McCarthy is no doubt counting on players on this list more than the newcomers. He has frequently talked about the jump players can make from year one to year two. Jason Wilde has a story about the jump Mike Daniels made from his rookie year to last year. “When you know what you’re doing, it makes things a heck of a lot easier,” Daniels said when asked about his improvement in his second season. "And there’s a reason you have to respect veteran players. They’ve been there, they’ve done that, they know how to play this game. I could be just as fast as I was [as a rookie], but I’ll be playing faster because I know things where I can tell where I might get a draw play, a run, a play-action pass."
http://www.espnwisconsin.com/common/page.php?feed=2&id=14271&is_corp=1

It makes sense after acclimating to Green Bay, the Packers’ locker room and of course the rigors of the NFL, players would be in a position to make the jump. So who on the list do you expect to make that jump? Lacy has made the jump and IMO is exempt from this discussion: I expect him to improve a little - the nuances of blitz pickup and more in tune with Rodgers on outlet passes - but all he has to do is replicate his rookie season. His biggest challenge will be just staying healthy. Bakhtiari got valuable starting experience last season but he needs to improve to keep his job going forward, and I expect he will. For the rest, the position they play will be a factor in the opportunities they’ll have to contribute. Hyde’s prospects are good even though there may not be a starting spot for him – he’s got the HC calling for him to be on the field more. Tretter will get a chance to grab the starting OC job and he’s got the size to hang onto it for the foreseeable future (although I am glad Linsley was drafted to challenge him).

McCarthy said this about Jones: “Datone is a very talented young man. His injury at the end of training camp set him back. I’m looking forward to getting him back in the offseason. I think he’s one of those players that make a huge jump.” http://www.packers.com/news-and-eve...ne-Jones/de16d499-8422-4ef0-9705-05e71156b6e6

Jones and Boyd will get plenty opportunities to join Daniels as a difference makers along the DL which is in need of them. Obviously the HC isn’t going to say anything negative but I don’t think he was blowing smoke about Jones – I expect him to make that huge jump too.

Mulumba’s chances for PT took a hit with the additions of Peppers and perhaps Bradford. I would love to see Barrington take a huge step up at ILB but at this point that’s more of a hope than an expectation. Franklin and Harris may be battling for one spot. Bostick certainly has a good shot to stick but with the additions at that position I’m guessing Stoneburner’s days are numbered. The WRs have a huge mountain to climb because of the competition – and there’s already a thread devoted to them. Banjo and Taylor will be battling for backup spots.

One rookie will be expected to step and start and the others will have the advantage of their draft status, but if the Packers are to go deep into the playoffs, IMO it will likely be due to the “develop” portion of the “draft and develop” philosophy.

You've got it right. I didn't realize Barrington was a rookie last year. I'm hoping Bradford can make the huge leap and be a contributor at ILB but that's gonna be hard with Jones (Brad) and Barrington ahead of him.

 

[easyk83]

The DL lacks a big body or two to convince me they´ll be better at stopping the run. Peppers won´t be used in those situations, Daniels is too small to play in the base.



I´d rather have someone already on the roster, maybe one of the undrafted rookies, step up than bring in a free agent at the end of training camp.

Daniels was shockingly stout and strong at the PoA as a rookie. He might be small and compact but he plays with superb leverage surprising strength and tremendous tenacity. I think he could perform as a early down run stopper, the trouble is that you would probably lose his pass rush ability.

 

[TJV]

Regarding the DL, strength, talent, and technique are more important than weight

 

[Deleted member 6794]

You've got it right. I didn't realize Barrington was a rookie last year. I'm hoping Bradford can make the huge leap and be a contributor at ILB but that's gonna be hard with Jones (Brad) and Barrington ahead of him.

Bradford is a OLB who never played inside and Gutekunst has said he will play outside. There's no reason to believe he'll be the solution at ILB.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Daniels was shockingly stout and strong at the PoA as a rookie. He might be small and compact but he plays with superb leverage surprising strength and tremendous tenacity. I think he could perform as a early down run stopper, the trouble is that you would probably lose his pass rush ability.

I agree that Daniels was better against the run than expected, I would rather have him as a pass rusher though as he was by far the best DL in that category last season.

 

[TJV]

I'm hoping Bradford can make the huge leap and be a contributor at ILB but that's gonna be hard with Jones (Brad) and Barrington ahead of him.

I was hoping Bradford was drafted to compete at ILB (just as I 'jumped the gun' and assumed Hyde would compete at safety right away). But the plan is to have Bradford compete at OLB. A couple of sportswriters have guessed Bradford may follow the path of Hyde and play a position more familiar to him (although Hyde played both CB and safety at Iowa) and in his second year switch to ILB, just as Hyde is now getting reps at safety. From what little I've seen/heard from OTAs, the news at ILB is Lattimore has gotten more reps. He's going into his fourth season so he didn't make either list, but having fewer options within each package could help him a lot.

I agree about Daniels - he's a great example of weight not being that important on the DL.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Regarding the DL, strength, talent, and technique are more important than weight but in the NFL players on the other side of the LOS are also talented and strong. Here’s an excerpt from a story on Grantland titled, Ode to the War Daddies. The story specifically talks about the evolution of Belichick’s defenses in New England and generally about of the history of techniques along the DL. (I bolded the text.) http://grantland.com/features/bill-belichick-vince-wilfork-new-england-patriots-defense/

It certainly looks like the Packers are getting lighter on the DL but I don’t think that alone is a reason for concern. Last season the Packers 3-4 DL at times consisted of Raji, Pickett, and CJ Wilson. Raji and Pickett were both 335+ but Wilson was “only” listed at 306. You may question how good Wilson was vs. the run but I don’t think his weight was a big factor in his performance – I don’t remember him getting blown off the LOS. McGinn writes he was third in tackles per snap on the DL.

Raji is listed at 337, UDFA Mike Pennel 332, Guion 315, Boyd 310, Thornton 304, Worthy 304, and Daniels 300. Datone Jones is listed at 6-4, 285, and Peppers is 6-7, 287. If he’s healthy they may bring Jolly 325 back but it looks like Pickett won’t return. The Grantland article talks about how Belichick has combined techniques of the 3-4 and 4-3 into a hybrid defense. I’m sure Capers has done the same thing and I think/hope what that means is DL who can’t 2-gap won’t be asked to do that much. When DCs talk about run fits they are talking the coordination of the DL and LBs (and sometimes DBs) in filling all the gaps along the OL. If everyone does their job, there’s a tackler in every gap.

IMO success in making the scheme easier to execute and paying more attention to each player’s strengths will make a bigger difference than the girth of the DL.

Taking a look at the best run stopping 3-4 DEs in the league I was surprised most of them weigh under 300 pounds. So I guess you have a valid point with this statement.

We'll have to wait and see which one of our DL will be able to excel playing the run as we've relied heavily on big guys over the last few seasons in the base defense.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I was hoping Bradford was drafted to compete at ILB (just as I 'jumped the gun' and assumed Hyde would compete at safety right away). But the plan is to have Bradford compete at OLB. A couple of sportswriters have guessed Bradford may follow the path of Hyde and play a position more familiar to him (although Hyde played both CB and safety at Iowa) and in his second year switch to ILB, just as Hyde is now getting reps at safety. From what little I've seen/heard from OTAs, the news at ILB is Lattimore has gotten more reps. He's going into his fourth season so he didn't make either list, but having fewer options within each package could help him a lot.

I hope Bradford can compete for playing time at OLB, some scouts had him going as early as in the second round.

Not a big fan of moving guys around, want Thompson to get a true ILB to provide help at the position.

 

[TJV]

Not a big fan of moving guys around...

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I’m neither a fan or not a fan of it. One of the most successful switches that comes to mind was LeRoy Butler’s switch from CB to safety. Shield's switch from WR to CB worked out well too, but that happened in college. I think Hyde’s switch to safety – or at the very least giving him snaps there – is a good idea. I think he has the body type and instincts to succeed there. I don’t know enough about Bradford to know how he’ll do at either OLB or ILB; I was hoping he’d begin by getting snaps at ILB because of the obvious need there and the relative glut of players at OLB. No matter where he plays I hope those scouts you mentioned were right.

There are some examples of guys being succesful after moving to another position, no doubt about it. It´s possible Hyde could turn out to be one of them, don´t think it´s a good idea to move a rookie to a different position. I don´t have any stats to back up my claim, but I´m convinced most of those position switches don´t work out that well.

 

[Jordyruns]

I'm fine with a position change, as long as it is not forced to meet a need. Hyde I don't believe is forced, Perry however could be argued, although I don't believe his was entirely forced either.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I'm fine with a position change, as long as it is not forced to meet a need. Hyde I don't believe is forced, Perry however could be argued, although I don't believe his was entirely forced either.

Well, Perry can´t play on the DL in a 3-4, so it was obvious he had to move to OLB once the Packers drafted him. Moving Bradford would be a forced move because of lack of talent at the ILB position as well. Hyde has shown he´s a talented slot corner, so it´s possible he could turn into a decent SS.

 

[Jordyruns]

Well, Perry can´t play on the DL in a 3-4, so it was obvious he had to move to OLB once the Packers drafted him. Moving Bradford would be a forced move because of lack of talent at the ILB position as well. Hyde has shown he´s a talented slot corner, so it´s possible he could turn into a decent SS.

Ok so a forced draft of a guy who wasn't necessarily meant for a 3-4 olb. Again I agree with you, I liked the pick then and still now feel he is hated on too much. His talent has shown and if he can be a little more consistent he would be worth the first round pick.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I liked the pick then and still now feel he is hated on too much. His talent has shown and if he can be a little more consistent he would be worth the first round pick.

As opposed to you I didn´t like the pick at the moment Thompson drafted him and still don´t see him being a great fit for a 3-4.

 

[TJV]

... don´t think it´s a good idea to move a rookie to a different position. I don´t have any stats to back up my claim, but I´m convinced most of those position switches don´t work out that well.

 

[mradtke66]

Since he's learning a new D, I don't think his switch from college to ILB would be one of the more drastic ones, but I'm not sure about that. But this is all moot because he's playing OLB this season so I hope he's damn good at it!

Bradford played a position more or less identical to what Clay played in college (Pete Carrol's "Leo" end.) He's on the line of scrimmage, but sometimes he was in a two point stance. Sometimes a three point stance.

He's honestly one of the few players that comes into the league ready to play as a standup end / 3-4 OLB.

 

[ExpatPacker]

There’s a story in the Official Packers.com News forum on Datone Jones. Not a lot there except I like that he doesn’t use the ankle injury as an excuse and he says his main problem was getting off blocks. He’s working on hand techniques and is bugging Peppers for tips. All good news.

It really does sound like they're expecting--and hoping--for a lot more out of Datone this year. His development as a legit, pass rushing DE would be a major step for this defense. Between Perry and Neal I hope at least one of them becomes the OLB we've been waiting for. Improvement at those two positions would make the Packers mediocre ILB crew less of a liability.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Ideally I agree about not forcing switches based upon need but I do think Hyde's switch to safety is just that. If Nick Collins and Morgan Burnett were starting at safety and they just drafted Clinton-Dix, I don't think Hyde would be taking snaps at safety. Regarding Bradford, for example if he were the 4th or 5th OLB but he could be one of the top two ILBs, I would rather he play ILB. Since he's learning a new D, I don't think his switch from college to ILB would be one of the more drastic ones, but I'm not sure about that. But this is all moot because he's playing OLB this season so I hope he's damn good at it!

I think that if Nick Collins was still playing for the Packers Thompson wouldn´t have drafted Clinton-Dix, but I don´t want to get involved in a BPA-BVA-need discussion at all. In that case it would be possible Hyde still taking some reps at safety as the situation wouldn´t be that much different from the one we have now. Don´t get me wrong, I´m not comparing Clinton-Dix to Collins by any means, but expect Hyde to be the primary backup at both safety and slot corner which would be a realistic scenario even if Collins was still playing.

Bradford hasn´t played ILB at any point during his football career so far, so while it´s true he has to learn a new defense with the Packers keeping him at his natural position will probably help his development.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

It really does sound like they're expecting--and hoping--for a lot more out of Datone this year. His development as a legit, pass rushing DE would be a major step for this defense. Between Perry and Neal I hope at least one of them becomes the OLB we've been waiting for. Improvement at those two positions would make the Packers mediocre ILB crew less of a liability.

Neal did a pretty good job pressuring the QB last season, he has to improve playing the run though. Perry has to look more natural on the left side, as he´ll have a better chance getting snaps on the strong side. I expect the pass rush to be improved with the addition of Peppers and hopefully Datone stepping up his play.

The biggest problem the defense faces IMO is the lack of talent at the ILB position and the DL not being build in a way to be able to cover up for their deficiencies.

 

[TJV]

The point about Collins was just an example that if they didn't see a need at safety I don't think they would have switched Hyde there. IOW, I see it as a needs based switch and I am still in favor of it.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

The point about Collins was just an example that if they didn't see a need at safety I don't think they would have switched Hyde there. IOW, I see it as a needs based switch and I am still in favor of it.

I agree that it´s pretty obvious the Packers thought about moving Hyde to safety because of an apparent need at the position. While I expect Clinton-Dix to start there in week 1 Hyde will probably be the primary backup.

The thing I wanted to point out is that it´s possible the Packers wouldn´t have drafted Clinton-Dix or any other safety if Collins would have stayed healthy and therefore Hyde could still have been moved, based on him potentially being an upgrade over the other backups at the position.

I thought Neal showed a lot of progress last season and am a bit perplexed why he is often lumped in with Perry. Mulumba also showed some promise.

Agreed.

 

[Bensalama21]

Bakhtiari, Banjo, Barrington, Bostick, Boyd, Dorsey, Franklin, Harper, Harris, Hill, Hyde, Jones (Datone),
Lacy, Mulumba, Palmer, Stoneburner, Taylor (Lane), Tiller, Tretter, White (Myles).

Out of these people, the "keepers" after this season will be: Lacy, Bakhtiari, Bostick, Hyde, and Datone Jones.

The ones I hope do well that weren't included in this list are: Franklin, Banjo, Boyd, Harris and Mulumba.

I just don't see any receiver doing well on this roster even though they do have potential (AKA players like Harper and White)