ILOVETHEPACK
Cheesehead
Is it time to cut the ties?
Justin Herrell
- Thread starter ILOVETHEPACK
- Start date
Aa-rodg_is_cool
Cheesehead
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2008
- Messages
- 99
- Reaction score
- 0
Naw.. Cut a first rounder after 2 years? Let him try and work through his injuries and see what he can do.. That said I have no faith that Justins gonna get through his injuries but I guess you never know..
GJ85
Cheesehead
He deserves at least one more year
if this year is one of the same, he is gone
yooperfan
Cheesehead
Gotta give him at least through preseason to see if he has anything.
He just does not appear that he will ever show up.
Hopefully this kid can dig down dep and redeem himself, we need all the help we can get on defense.
He just does not appear that he will ever show up.
Hopefully this kid can dig down dep and redeem himself, we need all the help we can get on defense.
freefromwhatyouare
Cheesehead
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2009
- Messages
- 83
- Reaction score
- 0
Re: Justin Harrell
If you are going to talk about him at least spell the kid's name right. Justin Harrell.
I think he could be a nose for Capers defense. The thing is he can't stay healthy.
I still feel he could be a good player but just hasn't shown he can stay healthy and doesn't show the maturity to even care. Pick up my weekly paycheck type player. He needs to grow up FAST!
If you are going to talk about him at least spell the kid's name right. Justin Harrell.
I think he could be a nose for Capers defense. The thing is he can't stay healthy.
I still feel he could be a good player but just hasn't shown he can stay healthy and doesn't show the maturity to even care. Pick up my weekly paycheck type player. He needs to grow up FAST!
boisenjm
Cheesehead
If anything Harrell would be a great DE in the 3-4. Secondly he has worked very hard and it isn't exactly his fault that he has had injury problems (especially with the back) Everyone that cuts into him and degrades him as lazy because of injuries is ignorant. Harrell can't help where he got drafted and that his injuries have limited him from becoming the truly great player that he has potential to be. To suggest that he isn't working hard and the fact that he hasn't gotten a chance to shine through the injuries is because he is lazy is just wothout basis.
freefromwhatyouare
Cheesehead
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2009
- Messages
- 83
- Reaction score
- 0
boisejm,
He has shown nothing even when relatively healthy to show he is a "truly great player" or ever will be.
Ted himself has said they will try him a little at nose and see what happens. He is not nor never will be a DE in any system. I'm not saying just totally give up on the kid right now.
I think they keep him around this season but if you see nothing out of him this season you let him go ASAP.
He has shown nothing even when relatively healthy to show he is a "truly great player" or ever will be.
Ted himself has said they will try him a little at nose and see what happens. He is not nor never will be a DE in any system. I'm not saying just totally give up on the kid right now.
I think they keep him around this season but if you see nothing out of him this season you let him go ASAP.
doughsellz
Cheesehead
freefromwhatyouare said:
At 6' 4" & 320 Harrell is about as close as it gets to a prototypical 3-4 DE. Your NT needs to have a lower center of gravity, usually around 6' 1" to 6' 2" & no less than 330. Pickett & Colin Cole have a better chance of success at NT for GB than Harrell.
Both the Packers & Harrell may surprise us all come July, though. Good luck Mr. Harrell. I'm rooting for you.
freefromwhatyouare
Cheesehead
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2009
- Messages
- 83
- Reaction score
- 0
Agreed that Pickett and Cole have a better shot at success at the nose next season. However, Ted Thompson himself said that Justin fits most at the nose and will get a shot there.
I do also wish him success but have my doubts whether he can stay healthy.
I do also wish him success but have my doubts whether he can stay healthy.
Cut ties after only 2 years you kidding me? This kid is gifted, very gifted. And has shown some good promise while playing in games when he has been healthy.
This is from a guy that knows a hell of a lot more than me about football on a different forum:
"A LOT of people misunderstand Justin's injury and project various forms of "back problems" on to him.
A disc in his spine herniated. It is not a muscle injury and has nothing to do with muscles. The exterior of the disc ripped and the insides slipped out into his spinal cavity and touched the nerves. This is not an uncommon injury. The point the nerves are impacted likely hurt at at first. But nerves are long cells that stretch thought the body, and the ones in the spine connect to the lower body. Much of the actual pain he felt, especially late, was not in the back, it was in his hips and upper legs, at the ends of the impacted nerves.
A herniated disc is self healing generally. It is not a debilitating injury and full recovery is generally expected, though the risk of reoccurance is greater. Surgery is done in extreme cases where the nerves are severely impacted, or in the case of professional athletes, to speed recovery. Part of the recovery process is flexibility exercises and strengthening the muscles to lessen the force applied to the discs, so more force is carried through the muscle system and not the spinal system.
Herniated discs are usually caused in people by long term degeneration of the discs, and when the injury occurs in normal people, it tends to keep reoccurring as all of the discs are likely in the weakened state, and the back weak and/or unflexible. Reoccuring minor bulging discs and subsequent recovery is common in normal people once one disc injury has happened, especially among older people. Increasing the flexibility and strength decreases the likelihood and/or frequency of reoccurance.
Justin's case is different, as is the case of most younger professional athletes that have the injury occur. When younger, overall degeneration of the discs is not expected. It is an acute trauma. Professional athletes are bigger, faster, and stronger than normal humans, but their skeleton is generally no different, especially the discs in their back. It is not an issue with normal people, as normal people's bodies don't incur the level of forces that professional athletes do. I too would probably hurt a disk in my back if I tried to power clean 1000 pounds, but it isn't an issue as my muscles are far weaker than that, making the likelihood of this sort of back injury all but impossible. It only becomes possible for normal people when in an overall degenerated state. In the high force environment of the professional athlete, injury without a lot of degeneration is possible.
But.....when young, recovery is expected. He likely doesn't have a back full of weak discs as with older people that get herniated discs. And discs heal. They just don't get permanently destroyed. They are living, just like skin they heal their wounds.
Justin's recovery was slow. He likely has a very severe case to begin with. But realize, it is not a shredded disc. One end tore, some inside stuff came out, and touched a nerve. The surgery attempted to remove the part pressuring the nerve. Obviously it didn't fully heal itself right away and a second surgery attempted to remove the offensive material. Given that he isn't having a 3rd surgery, the doctors are likely optimistic on the chances of the body healing itself. It just needed more time, something that he didn't have during the football season, but there is a luxury of right now.
Once the disc itself fully recovers, the training that he has been doing to recover offsets the fact that it likely is slightly weaker than his other ones. I have read about a number of cases where in fact the athlete came out better than before (cough, Montana herniated a disc in 1986 and had surgery). The disc healed and was no longer an issue, the strengthening and flexibility exercises done to recover leaves them in a state overall better suited for athletic performance. Once the disc is recovered, the only threat is reinjury, but it is not that big of a threat as the recovered disc is nearly as strong as pre-injury. If the stuff touching the nerve recedes and the disc is strong, as is expected, no long term effects are expected.
However....the fact that he had the injury likely points to the fact that his discs are degrading a bit. It happens in all people as they age, but it is not a side effect of use, playing football is not expected to degrade the discs anymore than sitting on the couch, it is a function of genetics and age. He is probably more prone than average to these problems in the future, but he is not debilitated by it.
This injury comes in 3 flavors to football players. In the neck, in the back, and late career.
In the neck guys generally retire, though some recover. It is far more severe to happen there as a forceful collision generally causes it. Running backs and receivers are most apt to this injury (S. Sharpe is one). Lacking the muscle support the back has, in the neck it is much scarier.
Late career guys that get it typically retire as well. There are likely two reasons why. By this point, instead of an acute injury, age is in fact catching up with them and the injury is likely to continue to reocccur. Also the primary non-surgical medicine given to speed recovery involves steroids, something that cannot be given to an active football player. Guys on the downside anyway most likely opt for the 'roids over the surgery and call it a career since the chance of reinjury is high.
Young guys have a high success rate. There are many younger football players that have had this injury and gone on to play at a high level with no ill effects (LJ Smith is one that come to mind, his best seasons came after it). Though it is a sign their discs are degrading, an early injury is a signal to change their workout habits and emphasize back strength and flexibility, decreasing the liklihood of reoccrance throughout their career.
Many people see this as the end for Justin, but the fact is his chance of full recovery is very high, and chances that the program he was placed on to minimize reinjury actually made him a better athlete. The body is self healing. It takes extreme circumstances for an injury to be debilitating, and this is generally not one.
Back pain and problems come in lots of different flavors. This one is an injury, but full recovery is expected. Any problems associated with it long term are more often the result of chronic degeneration and reinjury, a genetic and age related problem and not an "overuse" issue. The exercise program he is on to recover will not only limit the chance of reoccrance in his career, it will limit its effects throughout his life.
His back was never 100% in 2008 after the injury, it hadn't fully healed at any point. The chance that it heals to 95%+ or so is very good, and the chance that it is better in 2009 than it was in 2008 is near 100%, and he did play in 2008. The chance that it is near 100% in 2009 is also fairly high, given that he now has the time to allow the injury a chance to fully heal, where he can fully dedicate to recovery, not football.
I urge you guys to research this if you remain skeptical. A prostate injury does not indicate prostate problems, a herniated disc does not necessarily indicate back problems. Keep in mind the 3 flavors I described (old, young, neck), and limit it to athletes, they are not normal people and work in a high force environment, cases in normal people don't really apply, the underlying cause (degeneration) may be similar, but the force required to cause the actual herniation is much higher. If the injury occurs when pushing on a refrigerator, you back is in a much more degenerated state than it is if it occurs you are trying to lift up a car, and lifting up refrigerator is normal for you."
This is from a guy that knows a hell of a lot more than me about football on a different forum:
"A LOT of people misunderstand Justin's injury and project various forms of "back problems" on to him.
A disc in his spine herniated. It is not a muscle injury and has nothing to do with muscles. The exterior of the disc ripped and the insides slipped out into his spinal cavity and touched the nerves. This is not an uncommon injury. The point the nerves are impacted likely hurt at at first. But nerves are long cells that stretch thought the body, and the ones in the spine connect to the lower body. Much of the actual pain he felt, especially late, was not in the back, it was in his hips and upper legs, at the ends of the impacted nerves.
A herniated disc is self healing generally. It is not a debilitating injury and full recovery is generally expected, though the risk of reoccurance is greater. Surgery is done in extreme cases where the nerves are severely impacted, or in the case of professional athletes, to speed recovery. Part of the recovery process is flexibility exercises and strengthening the muscles to lessen the force applied to the discs, so more force is carried through the muscle system and not the spinal system.
Herniated discs are usually caused in people by long term degeneration of the discs, and when the injury occurs in normal people, it tends to keep reoccurring as all of the discs are likely in the weakened state, and the back weak and/or unflexible. Reoccuring minor bulging discs and subsequent recovery is common in normal people once one disc injury has happened, especially among older people. Increasing the flexibility and strength decreases the likelihood and/or frequency of reoccurance.
Justin's case is different, as is the case of most younger professional athletes that have the injury occur. When younger, overall degeneration of the discs is not expected. It is an acute trauma. Professional athletes are bigger, faster, and stronger than normal humans, but their skeleton is generally no different, especially the discs in their back. It is not an issue with normal people, as normal people's bodies don't incur the level of forces that professional athletes do. I too would probably hurt a disk in my back if I tried to power clean 1000 pounds, but it isn't an issue as my muscles are far weaker than that, making the likelihood of this sort of back injury all but impossible. It only becomes possible for normal people when in an overall degenerated state. In the high force environment of the professional athlete, injury without a lot of degeneration is possible.
But.....when young, recovery is expected. He likely doesn't have a back full of weak discs as with older people that get herniated discs. And discs heal. They just don't get permanently destroyed. They are living, just like skin they heal their wounds.
Justin's recovery was slow. He likely has a very severe case to begin with. But realize, it is not a shredded disc. One end tore, some inside stuff came out, and touched a nerve. The surgery attempted to remove the part pressuring the nerve. Obviously it didn't fully heal itself right away and a second surgery attempted to remove the offensive material. Given that he isn't having a 3rd surgery, the doctors are likely optimistic on the chances of the body healing itself. It just needed more time, something that he didn't have during the football season, but there is a luxury of right now.
Once the disc itself fully recovers, the training that he has been doing to recover offsets the fact that it likely is slightly weaker than his other ones. I have read about a number of cases where in fact the athlete came out better than before (cough, Montana herniated a disc in 1986 and had surgery). The disc healed and was no longer an issue, the strengthening and flexibility exercises done to recover leaves them in a state overall better suited for athletic performance. Once the disc is recovered, the only threat is reinjury, but it is not that big of a threat as the recovered disc is nearly as strong as pre-injury. If the stuff touching the nerve recedes and the disc is strong, as is expected, no long term effects are expected.
However....the fact that he had the injury likely points to the fact that his discs are degrading a bit. It happens in all people as they age, but it is not a side effect of use, playing football is not expected to degrade the discs anymore than sitting on the couch, it is a function of genetics and age. He is probably more prone than average to these problems in the future, but he is not debilitated by it.
This injury comes in 3 flavors to football players. In the neck, in the back, and late career.
In the neck guys generally retire, though some recover. It is far more severe to happen there as a forceful collision generally causes it. Running backs and receivers are most apt to this injury (S. Sharpe is one). Lacking the muscle support the back has, in the neck it is much scarier.
Late career guys that get it typically retire as well. There are likely two reasons why. By this point, instead of an acute injury, age is in fact catching up with them and the injury is likely to continue to reocccur. Also the primary non-surgical medicine given to speed recovery involves steroids, something that cannot be given to an active football player. Guys on the downside anyway most likely opt for the 'roids over the surgery and call it a career since the chance of reinjury is high.
Young guys have a high success rate. There are many younger football players that have had this injury and gone on to play at a high level with no ill effects (LJ Smith is one that come to mind, his best seasons came after it). Though it is a sign their discs are degrading, an early injury is a signal to change their workout habits and emphasize back strength and flexibility, decreasing the liklihood of reoccrance throughout their career.
Many people see this as the end for Justin, but the fact is his chance of full recovery is very high, and chances that the program he was placed on to minimize reinjury actually made him a better athlete. The body is self healing. It takes extreme circumstances for an injury to be debilitating, and this is generally not one.
Back pain and problems come in lots of different flavors. This one is an injury, but full recovery is expected. Any problems associated with it long term are more often the result of chronic degeneration and reinjury, a genetic and age related problem and not an "overuse" issue. The exercise program he is on to recover will not only limit the chance of reoccrance in his career, it will limit its effects throughout his life.
His back was never 100% in 2008 after the injury, it hadn't fully healed at any point. The chance that it heals to 95%+ or so is very good, and the chance that it is better in 2009 than it was in 2008 is near 100%, and he did play in 2008. The chance that it is near 100% in 2009 is also fairly high, given that he now has the time to allow the injury a chance to fully heal, where he can fully dedicate to recovery, not football.
I urge you guys to research this if you remain skeptical. A prostate injury does not indicate prostate problems, a herniated disc does not necessarily indicate back problems. Keep in mind the 3 flavors I described (old, young, neck), and limit it to athletes, they are not normal people and work in a high force environment, cases in normal people don't really apply, the underlying cause (degeneration) may be similar, but the force required to cause the actual herniation is much higher. If the injury occurs when pushing on a refrigerator, you back is in a much more degenerated state than it is if it occurs you are trying to lift up a car, and lifting up refrigerator is normal for you."
doughsellz
Cheesehead
Grea information on the generality of back injuries. Is any of it definitive to Harrell or are these just suppositions & hypotheticals?
Why was this player taken in Round One? His back history is documented dating to his high school days. Doesn't that tend to make one believe it is more than just a temporary setback? He could be in & out of the line-up for the remainder of his career.
That's where most people believe the mistake was made - that this became GB's problem at the expense of the their first pick in the '07 draft. :no:
It's one thing to give a player time to develop. It's quite different to have to surrender valuable PT just to get someone healthy enough to participate.
And for the record there were two Pro Bowl players drafted after #16 in '07:
Michael Griffin, DB from Texas (to the Titans) at #19 &
Jon Beason, LB from Miami (to the Panthers) at #25.
Why was this player taken in Round One? His back history is documented dating to his high school days. Doesn't that tend to make one believe it is more than just a temporary setback? He could be in & out of the line-up for the remainder of his career.
That's where most people believe the mistake was made - that this became GB's problem at the expense of the their first pick in the '07 draft. :no:
It's one thing to give a player time to develop. It's quite different to have to surrender valuable PT just to get someone healthy enough to participate.
And for the record there were two Pro Bowl players drafted after #16 in '07:
Michael Griffin, DB from Texas (to the Titans) at #19 &
Jon Beason, LB from Miami (to the Panthers) at #25.
Aa-rodg_is_cool
Cheesehead
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2008
- Messages
- 99
- Reaction score
- 0
Justin Harrell = Greg Oden.
hubbabubba
Cheesehead
Justin Harrell = Greg Oden / 2
His upside his nowhere near Oden's although I wish it was...
His upside his nowhere near Oden's although I wish it was...
Similar threads
