Jerry Kramer, Sterling=HoF?

DevilDon

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I haven't made a perfect study of all 44 folks who vote for the HOF, but I don't really have much respect for the ones I have. John "There's Ten Elite QB's In The NFL" Clayton is a prime example. At some point one has to look at the process and the people who control it. At the end of the day, sports writers are a bunch of sweaty courtesy-buffet jockeys whose opinions matter about as much as your average fan. Knowing an A-gap from a 9-technique doesn't endow one with the ability to know exactly which 1.5% of players deserve to be in or out of the HOF. I don't sweat that Rush isn't in the Rock'nRoll HOF, and I don't sweat that Kramer isn't in the PFHOF.

To further the point, anyone watch those "Top 10 ......" programs on the NFL network and they cut to the media guys that make up 70% of the show? They typify the mental giants who vote for the HOF.

The internet provides a lot of resources and statistics, and we can watch the games to our heart's content. The "all field" access we are soon to get will give us even more to look at if we choose. The days of the intermediaries are numbered?
LOL, I don't sweat RUSH either because there were so many good bands back then. I don't know they did anything extraordinary but it would bother me if Journey was in and Rush wasn't. I just don't wanna know!!!
I'm not so harsh on writers as you toolkien but do you have an alternative? Methinks a vote by past players on historic figures perhaps. I've never heard of a single player of that era denouncing Kramer for the HOF.
 

kramerkid

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That relationship may have appeared that way, but Jerry and Taylor had a good relationship. They had several business ventures after football. Later on they did have falling out, but they still support one another. What I hear most is that Kramer broke the 'what happened behind locker room doors, stays behind locker room doors' trust. **** Shapp could have offered that book deal to anyone of those guys and he would have had them put down the same thoughts and ideas. Jerry was very candid. Although, in all actuality, what was said in Instant Replay was just the tip of the iceberg of what really went on behind locker room doors. Jerry was and still remains very loyal to his teammates and they are the same way to him. Instant Replay sold 4 million copies. Jerry became a successful author. He had several books on the best seller chart, but none as wonderful as Instant Replay.
 

ivo610

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Really Ivo? Are you serious? I've yet to see a single post here about Driver being inducted. Not a single one and I've been here for a couple of years. Where are you getting your material? I look over alot of Packer news sites and I read comments and I've never once, not one single time seen someone suggest that Driver should be inducted.

Really? Where have you been? You say "do your research" but I have found posts from TODAY!!!! from people saying driver should be HOF worthy.

Get your reading glasses out...

http://www.packerforum.com/threads/donald-driver-hall-of-fame.27183/

http://www.packerforum.com/threads/current-packer-hall-of-famers.38073/

http://www.packerforum.com/threads/great-read-on-my-favorite-packer-of-all-time.32518/

http://www.packerforum.com/threads/does-driver-or-woodson-get-their-numbers-retired.26445/

http://www.packerforum.com/threads/packers-not-in-canton.29028/

http://www.packerforum.com/threads/donald-driver-eyeballs-franchise-records-canton.28288/

I tried to use only threads from the past couple years.
 

milani

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Forget the Ice Bowl block or the power sweep. JK was a FT guard who had to become a place kicker in 1962, 1963 when Hornung got injured and then suspended. How many guards could just go in and place kick even in those days? Sports fans and reporters don't weigh in on the fact that he had to kick 3 FGs in the 1962 championship game which was the difference in a 16-7 victory. The greater accomplishment was that he did it with icy hurricane cross winds gusting as high as 40 mph! His counterpart for the Giants that day, the great Packer to be, Don Chandler, who was a FT kicker, could not even come close to finding the goal post!
 

ivo610

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I haven't made a perfect study of all 44 folks who vote for the HOF, but I don't really have much respect for the ones I have. John "There's Ten Elite QB's In The NFL" Clayton is a prime example. At some point one has to look at the process and the people who control it. At the end of the day, sports writers are a bunch of sweaty courtesy-buffet jockeys whose opinions matter about as much as your average fan. Knowing an A-gap from a 9-technique doesn't endow one with the ability to know exactly which 1.5% of players deserve to be in or out of the HOF. I don't sweat that Rush isn't in the Rock'nRoll HOF, and I don't sweat that Kramer isn't in the PFHOF.

To further the point, anyone watch those "Top 10 ......" programs on the NFL network and they cut to the media guys that make up 70% of the show? They typify the mental giants who vote for the HOF.

The internet provides a lot of resources and statistics, and we can watch the games to our heart's content. The "all field" access we are soon to get will give us even more to look at if we choose. The days of the intermediaries are numbered?

I will start off by saying that I think the Hall of Fame voters are doing an excellent job of whats in front of them. My biggest issue with the HOF process is that it hasnt caught up to modern times. Some of the best reporters on the planet dont work for papers anymore, they work for websites. I think Aaron Nagler is one of the most well versed reporters when it comes to football and would make a great voter. Nate Dunley (SP?) is insanely knowledgable and could be indys voter. Hopefully someday it will better reflect the times.

I have very high respect for most of the HOF voters. Its too bad what happened to Paul Zimmerman because he was the most knowledgable man on the planet (Joe Horrigan is up there) when it came to pro football.

People say Players should have a vote, and here is an example of my issue with players voting. They dont have the knowledge. I have met dozens of players who have never heard of Don Hutson. The idea someone would call Hutson better than Jerry Rice is insane to them. Yet you have a reporter in Peter King who has stood up to a large amount of criticism and stood firm on his opinion that Don Hutson is the greatest NFL player of all time. Paul Zimmerman said Marion Montley was the greatest RB of all time. Clearly not a popular opinion. Paul actually went back and found as much footage as possible of the greats from before his time to form his own opinion. Instead of just what everyone else said. Few players or fans go that route.
 

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As a Packer fan I would be thrilled to see another Packer in the Hall. I really would. But equal to my love for the packers is my love for pro football. I love it. I love the Hall of Fame, I love old players, I love the history, I love pretty much everything about it. I collect old football books to get a better idea on how players were viewed in previous generations. I spent $500 on a book of unreleased pictures of the 50s, 60s, and 70s games. I mean my love for this stuff is huge. So when a player like Jerry Kramer cant get in, I dont view it as a Packer fan, I view it as a football fan. His legacy in GB is secured, that I am certain of. As a football fan I look at his resume for the hall and I dont see it being any better than alot of other players. I would say he is in the top 25 (that tv show with the top 10 most deserving players was filled with mostly big names, not big resumes).

I think the reason it doesnt bother me like it bothers some people that Jerry isnt in is because I can point to such and such a player and say "(Player X) isnt in the HOF, thats how tough it is to get in. Thats how special it is." So as a Packer fan I dont mind, because I am secure with Jerrys legacy. I know what kind of player he was. As a Football fan, I am ok with it because I know it shows how tough the HOF is and what kind of players get in.

For those on here who it burns them up inside Jerry isnt in, I would suggest contacting Cliff Christl, he would be the guy that would give you a good idea on what the public could do.
 

kramerkid

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As a Packer fan I would be thrilled to see another Packer in the Hall. I really would. But equal to my love for the packers is my love for pro football. I love it. I love the Hall of Fame, I love old players, I love the history, I love pretty much everything about it. I collect old football books to get a better idea on how players were viewed in previous generations. I spent $500 on a book of unreleased pictures of the 50s, 60s, and 70s games. I mean my love for this stuff is huge. So when a player like Jerry Kramer cant get in, I dont view it as a Packer fan, I view it as a football fan. His legacy in GB is secured, that I am certain of. As a football fan I look at his resume for the hall and I dont see it being any better than alot of other players. I would say he is in the top 25 (that tv show with the top 10 most deserving players was filled with mostly big names, not big resumes).

I think the reason it doesnt bother me like it bothers some people that Jerry isnt in is because I can point to such and such a player and say "(Player X) isnt in the HOF, thats how tough it is to get in. Thats how special it is." So as a Packer fan I dont mind, because I am secure with Jerrys legacy. I know what kind of player he was. As a Football fan, I am ok with it because I know it shows how tough the HOF is and what kind of players get in.

For those on here who it burns them up inside Jerry isnt in, I would suggest contacting Cliff Christl, he would be the guy that would give you a good idea on what the public could do.

I appreciate what you said here and agree and respect most of what you said. I have contacted Cliff Christl. He has championed Gale Gillingham in the past and still today, but he not against Jerry for the hall. They, writers and players, are allowed to champion more than one player. Bart Starr not only champions Bob Skoronski, but also Kramer. Willie Davis champions Dave Robinson, but also Kramer. Everyone champions a certain player more than others. We all have our favorites for one reason or another.
 

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One last thing. What I have found to be most interesting is the cross section of football fans that champion Jerry for the hall. We aren't just talking Packer fans. We are talking about Bear fans, Ram, Chief, Cowboy, etc. Fans who again respect the game, understand the history, the players who played.
I'm tired of arguing this out. I respect everyone's opinion whether like or different. But I have a very hard time with people who form their opinion based on other opinions instead of seeking the information and studying it for themselves.
Look forward to the season ahead. Hope we bring home the title!
GO PACK!
 

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OK, but you have to admit thinking Driver is HOF worthy is something you read right over as homerism right? From one of your posts on your selections:
"I wouldnt call him a shoo in. Shoe in is like Favre, Manning, Brady, and Tomlinson. Woodson might wait a couple years imo. He should get in though. Rodgers might be the next packers player after him. But I would be even happier if Kramer went in before all of them."
So what the heck are you arguing about? If anybody really thinks Driver is HOF material then power to 'em but I probably glossed over those comments and didn't register it as something worth considerting. I'll tell ya why IVO, because it doesn't make any sense and I don't come here to argue stuff with people. I've learned to let people have their opinions.
Do you really suggest the Kramer vrs HOF and Driver HOF are on the same wavelength? TBH I'm stunned people think Driver is worthy but that is those posters opinion but they were never weighed against Jerry Kramer's worth.
You got me though, it seems I simply ignore really silly posts by otherwise intelligent or otherwise friendly posters. I'm not here to argue.
I'm not going to pour through your examples though I think I can refute every reference. Nobody really thinks Donald Driver is going to Canton, though we all know he will make it to the Packer Hall of Fame.
Jerry Kramer is not only worthy, he's the singular example of what is wrong with the voting for members. Please give me one reason why he's not in Ivo. Just one.
 

DevilDon

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(that tv show with the top 10 most deserving players was filled with mostly big names, not big resumes).
Oh, the Hall of Fame doesn't have room for "Fame"? Fame is what made the game Ivo. Fame IS the game.
The stars generate the fans revenue, the stars push for commercial time. I'm an old timer buddy, but get real. This game has never been about stats except for stat people. It's the glory and highlights and ridiculous moments.
Those simple "names" and not resumes are what made the game champ.
 

ivo610

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Oh, the Hall of Fame doesn't have room for "Fame"? Fame is what made the game Ivo. Fame IS the game.
The stars generate the fans revenue, the stars push for commercial time. I'm an old timer buddy, but get real. This game has never been about stats except for stat people. It's the glory and highlights and ridiculous moments.
Those simple "names" and not resumes are what made the game champ.

So by your reasoning ocho cinco > Marvin Harrison?

Shawn merriman > Zach Thomas?

Joey porter > Freeney?

Rex Ryan > mike McCarthy?

Is that how you really view it? Wow Guess you have no respect for the players that went out and did their jobs and didn't turn it into a circus act. I'll judge players by their on the field accomplishments, you keep judging them on their media image.
 

kramerkid

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Hey me again. About that 'top ten players not in the hall of fame'. For what it is worth. Ed Sabol championed Jerry and his son Steve has carried that torch, because he believed, like his father, that Jerry was hall of fame worthy.
 

gwh11

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I think this is a good argument to have, because it forces you to think more about the history of the NFL.

How does the Seniors Committee tackle these issues? In 2007, member Don Pierson of the Chicago Tribune stated that deliberation was "based on Pro Bowls and testimony I've seen and heard over the years."
What?!
There has to be a better, more systematic, more encompassing approach than this.
The HOF certainly has put in names recently that have been headscratchers (**** LeBeau? Floyd Little? Seriously?).

So...should Kramer go in because of the Pro Bowl & All-Pro honors?
Another guard, Jim Tyrer, has him beat in that regard. How much emphasis should we put on those honors in that era? Do people know how Ray Nitschke compares to, say, Andy Russell or Lee Roy Jordan in that way? Would that mean they should get a HOF nod over Ray? Didn't Bill Forester have more Pro Bowl/All-Pro honors than Nitschke?

Kramer is the only member of the 50th Anniversary team not in the Hall. That does feel odd. But how much weight should being named to that team carry? Unitas was chosen for that team over arguably the greatest QB of all time, Bart Starr.

I wonder if there may have been some blowback against Kramer in how he approached the Ice Bowl block. From 'Instant Replay':"Kenny Bowman came up to me smiling and said, "Don't take all the credit, Kramer. Don't take all the credit. I helped you with that block."

"Shut up, Bow," I said. "You've got ten more years to play. You've got plenty of time for glory. I ain't telling anybody anything. If they think I made that block alone, I'm gonna let them think it." I was only kidding Bowman, of course. But I've got to admit that I didn't tell many people about Bowman's part in the block."

That may have soured Kramer's reputation among some writers.

Ivo is exactly right about Kramer's fame from not being voted in.

All things considered, I would vote for him to be in the Hall over a handful of others that have already been enshrined.

But in my opinion the omission of LaVern Dilweg from the Hall makes even less sense. Before engaging in any conversation about which Packer has suffered the biggest slight from not being voted into the HOF, I would recommend reading this article on Dilweg, and compare his honors, domination, and impact on the game in his time versus Kramer, Robinson, Sharpe, etc: http://www.footballnation.com/content/old-school-the-hof-case-for-packers-great-lavern/2953/.
 

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So by your reasoning ocho cinco > Marvin Harrison?

Shawn merriman > Zach Thomas?

Joey porter > Freeney?

Rex Ryan > mike McCarthy?

Is that how you really view it? Wow Guess you have no respect for the players that went out and did their jobs and didn't turn it into a circus act. I'll judge players by their on the field accomplishments, you keep judging them on their media image.
No, but this is a different era in the NFL. The greats and the fame from the early years are what made the game. Silly argument, Jerry Kramer was never in any kind of way close to those "stars" you mention. He was a down to earth player and he was amazing.
His star wasn't in making news, he was at a position that doesn't engender glory. That's the point, if he can be as well known as he is at a position that doesn't attract glory doesn't it imply his impact on the game was huge?
He didn't garner the spotlight by beating his wife or driving drunk or fighting dogs. He was just really good at an inglorious position. I'm honestly shocked you take the position you do. This is a class act that excelled at the game and is a huge part of the success of the NFL when the preeminence of the game wasn't decided then. He helped MAKE the NFL dude.
Instead of arguing little fruit fly points, will you please tell me one reason Jerry isn't in the hall of fame or why he's not worthy? Honesty Ivo, combating the little points seems so petty. I respect your opinion so I'm not going to argue little points. Just tell me why you think he's not worthy okay... even though you said he was!
 

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LOL, I don't sweat RUSH either because there were so many good bands back then. I don't know they did anything extraordinary but it would bother me if Journey was in and Rush wasn't. I just don't wanna know!!!
I'm not so harsh on writers as you toolkien but do you have an alternative? Methinks a vote by past players on historic figures perhaps. I've never heard of a single player of that era denouncing Kramer for the HOF.

I don't have any alternative, it's just that the HOF doesn't matter as much to me as it might others. With websites such as pro-football-reference one can stack up players against other players over whatever time frame they want. I can see who's good and who's not. The top players of all time rise to the top of whatever one pulls up and a monkey could vote them in. Then there's the second tier guys and some are in and some are out. For example, Dan Fouts is in, and if he's in Ken Anderson should be too. But he's not. And I don't think Cliff Christl, John Clayton, or John McClain have any greater divination powers than I do and who of the second tier should be in and who should be out. It's mostly based on hype and these are the very guys who generate hype. For example Cliff Christl is wound up with Favre that he has no objectivity (of course Favre is a no doubt guy, but the point is still the same). I think a lot of who gets in of the second tier HOFers is tied to these guy's SUBjectivity, not OBjectivity.

So, in other words, having a HOF perhaps was considered necessary before the age of information and guys would slip off into oblivion if there wasn't a HOF. Years ago you got your local team, a national game, and a Monday Night game. Now with Sunday Ticket you can see every game, or parts thereof - and of course the endless highlights on sports stations and the internet. As an example, out of all of the resources, I don't need these sports writers to tell me that Owens or Moss or Harrison will be in, they will be, but I also don't need their opinion over whether Ward, Holt, or Fitzgerald should be in. Their criterion will ultimately come down to a popularity contest that is irrelevant.
 

kramerkid

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I think this is a good argument to have, because it forces you to think more about the history of the NFL.

How does the Seniors Committee tackle these issues? In 2007, member Don Pierson of the Chicago Tribune stated that deliberation was "based on Pro Bowls and testimony I've seen and heard over the years."
What?!
There has to be a better, more systematic, more encompassing approach than this.
The HOF certainly has put in names recently that have been headscratchers (**** LeBeau? Floyd Little? Seriously?).

So...should Kramer go in because of the Pro Bowl & All-Pro honors?
Another guard, Jim Tyrer, has him beat in that regard. How much emphasis should we put on those honors in that era? Do people know how Ray Nitschke compares to, say, Andy Russell or Lee Roy Jordan in that way? Would that mean they should get a HOF nod over Ray? Didn't Bill Forester have more Pro Bowl/All-Pro honors than Nitschke?

Kramer is the only member of the 50th Anniversary team not in the Hall. That does feel odd. But how much weight should being named to that team carry? Unitas was chosen for that team over arguably the greatest QB of all time, Bart Starr.

I wonder if there may have been some blowback against Kramer in how he approached the Ice Bowl block. From 'Instant Replay':"Kenny Bowman came up to me smiling and said, "Don't take all the credit, Kramer. Don't take all the credit. I helped you with that block."

"Shut up, Bow," I said. "You've got ten more years to play. You've got plenty of time for glory. I ain't telling anybody anything. If they think I made that block alone, I'm gonna let them think it." I was only kidding Bowman, of course. But I've got to admit that I didn't tell many people about Bowman's part in the block."

That may have soured Kramer's reputation among some writers.

Ivo is exactly right about Kramer's fame from not being voted in.

All things considered, I would vote for him to be in the Hall over a handful of others that have already been enshrined.

But in my opinion the omission of LaVern Dilweg from the Hall makes even less sense. Before engaging in any conversation about which Packer has suffered the biggest slight from not being voted into the HOF, I would recommend reading this article on Dilweg, and compare his honors, domination, and impact on the game in his time versus Kramer, Robinson, Sharpe, etc: http://www.footballnation.com/content/old-school-the-hof-case-for-packers-great-lavern/2953/.

Thank you for your input. I hear what you are saying but I politely disagree with the whole Ken Bowman thing. What you said is true. There was some bad feelings there between Jerry and Ken, but it was worked out. If you see video of the Ice Bowl and see what happened after the block, many people didn't give Ken Bowman credit. All the focus and attention WAS on Jerry. It wasn't till later and replay of footage that people realized Ken Bowman was a part of that. And if you ask Jerry today, he will gladly give credit to Ken. And as you stated above..."He (Jerry) I was only kidding Bowman". So you are kinda throwing your own opinion in what people may or may not have perceived with those statements, unless you are a voter and you know that is being said?

Sorry I am so long winded, but my point here is...It is voters that have stated over and over again, that what matters is what a player contributed on the field. They don't want to hear about Kramer's success with Instant Replay or anything else. His book success will not get him into the hall of fame, so that shouldn't even be discussed.
As of this year, when I have spoken to voters and they have been very candid. Several of them won't say they haven't heard of Jerry, they say they have never seen him play. They tell me that they need to see video footage and to hear from his contemporaries. We have 33 letters from contemporaries. Someone said above that 'football players don't have great memories'. Well lets entertain that thought for a minute. They didn't have the kind of padding that players have today. They also played through concussions, because they weren't expected to. Most of these guys are still active members of the hall. They also are still contributing memories/thoughts/ideas to media when something happens with their team. In my opinion I think you are really insulting them by saying that they don't have a good memory of the game they played or the players they played against. Plus I would love for you to tell Mike Ditka he doesn't have a good memory. I would pay good money to see you tell him that, haha. But maybe we can expect that of one or two players wouldn't have good memory, but 33 men? I doubt that all of them have bad memories. I imagine if Jerry is nominated by the senior selection committee, more hall of famers will come forward with their support. I hope so.
 

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I wanted to compare their pro bowl status. As I did. I noticed Jerry made Pro Bowl status, albeit 2nd team in 1961, the same year he fractures an ankle and suffered a detached retina. I also noticed that he was absent in '64 when doctors performed surgery and found pieces of a board lodged in his abdomen from a childhood accident. It was written that some doubted he would play again? He returned in 1965 and was All Pro in 1966 and '67. The same year that he teamed with Ken Bowman on a key block that propelled Bart Starr to the winning touchdown in the 1967 NFL championship.
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Would it be assuming to much, that if he hadn't been injured, he would have more Pro Bowl honors?
 

ivo610

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No, but this is a different era in the NFL. The greats and the fame from the early years are what made the game. Silly argument, Jerry Kramer was never in any kind of way close to those "stars" you mention. He was a down to earth player and he was amazing.
His star wasn't in making news, he was at a position that doesn't engender glory. That's the point, if he can be as well known as he is at a position that doesn't attract glory doesn't it imply his impact on the game was huge?
He didn't garner the spotlight by beating his wife or driving drunk or fighting dogs. He was just really good at an inglorious position. I'm honestly shocked you take the position you do. This is a class act that excelled at the game and is a huge part of the success of the NFL when the preeminence of the game wasn't decided then. He helped MAKE the NFL dude.
Instead of arguing little fruit fly points, will you please tell me one reason Jerry isn't in the hall of fame or why he's not worthy? Honesty Ivo, combating the little points seems so petty. I respect your opinion so I'm not going to argue little points. Just tell me why you think he's not worthy okay... even though you said he was!

Please tell me where I said he wasn't worthy! Bc I have clearly said the opposite. Instead you like to make up crap and pick fights. You are trying to force me into a different position on the issue than I have taken, in order to argue. My position is VERY clear, at least it should be as its been stated in this thread. It's not that I don't think he is worthy, it's that I don't think his resume is to the point where it's that much better than other players out there. Go back and read my post about being a fan of both the packers and of pro football.

Are you saying you have different standards for different players in the NFL???
 

gwh11

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I wanted to compare their pro bowl status. As I did. I noticed Jerry made Pro Bowl status, albeit 2nd team in 1961, the same year he fractures an ankle and suffered a detached retina. I also noticed that he was absent in '64 when doctors performed surgery and found pieces of a board lodged in his abdomen from a childhood accident. It was written that some doubted he would play again? He returned in 1965 and was All Pro in 1966 and '67. The same year that he teamed with Ken Bowman on a key block that propelled Bart Starr to the winning touchdown in the 1967 NFL championship.
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Would it be assuming to much, that if he hadn't been injured, he would have more Pro Bowl honors?
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I wanted to compare their pro bowl status. As I did. I noticed Jerry made Pro Bowl status, albeit 2nd team in 1961, the same year he fractures an ankle and suffered a detached retina. I also noticed that he was absent in '64 when doctors performed surgery and found pieces of a board lodged in his abdomen from a childhood accident. It was written that some doubted he would play again? He returned in 1965 and was All Pro in 1966 and '67. The same year that he teamed with Ken Bowman on a key block that propelled Bart Starr to the winning touchdown in the 1967 NFL championship.
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Would it be assuming to much, that if he hadn't been injured, he would have more Pro Bowl honors?
You listed All-Pro teams above; not sure why you're talking about Pro Bowls (which of course didn't exist in Dilweg's era).
In addition, if you're listing the number of All-Pro team honors as the reason one player should get a HOF nod over another, I would ask you to check Jim Tyrer's record, among others.
As I stated before, I do believe Kramer deserves to be in the Hall. However, I do not think he was the absolute best at his position in his era. Many believe that Dilweg was in fact the best at his position (end) in his era. That is why I think it's even more senseless that Dilweg hasn't been voted in.
 

kramerkid

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And I think what you said applies with Kramer and Dilweg too. As far as expecting different standards. Didn't Dilweg, play three different positions? Where Kramer, another era, played two, where as say a current player, specializes in one position? Teams have more players today? Also salaries are different. I know that Jerry and others had jobs in off season. Current players are paid to stay in condition all year round. Jerry was working a sledge hammer one summer to stay in condition, because he needed income to feed a wife and three babies. So I do believe standards are different. Lastly, all kinds of awards have been made up and handed out each tear. Where as Dilweg may have only earned so much, had he or Jerry played today, they both might have more honors then what they earned.
Ivo. I hope you don't feel that I am attacking you. You raised some interesting points and I learned from them. Granted some are old arguments, but not all. It was nice talking to u.
 

kramerkid

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You listed All-Pro teams above; not sure why you're talking about Pro Bowls (which of course didn't exist in Dilweg's era).
In addition, if you're listing the number of All-Pro team honors as the reason one player should get a HOF nod over another, I would ask you to check Jim Tyrer's record, among others.
As I stated before, I do believe Kramer deserves to be in the Hall. However, I do not think he was the absolute best at his position in his era. Many believe that Dilweg was in fact the best at his position (end) in his era. That is why I think it's even more senseless that Dilweg hasn't been voted in.

Excuse me. You are right. I apologize about that. I meant All-Pro, not Pro Bowl. You were throwing Dilweg in there and I wanted see how they compared. Both were kickers as well. Jerry scored more points as a kicker, but he also had a longer career. I will check Jim Tyrer's record. Thank you
 

kramerkid

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You listed All-Pro teams above; not sure why you're talking about Pro Bowls (which of course didn't exist in Dilweg's era).
In addition, if you're listing the number of All-Pro team honors as the reason one player should get a HOF nod over another, I would ask you to check Jim Tyrer's record, among others.
As I stated before, I do believe Kramer deserves to be in the Hall. However, I do not think he was the absolute best at his position in his era. Many believe that Dilweg was in fact the best at his position (end) in his era. That is why I think it's even more senseless that Dilweg hasn't been voted in.

And did u see my last question? If Jerry hadn't been injured, do you think he would have earned more all pro selections? Just curious what your thoughts might be?
 

kramerkid

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And I think what you said applies with Kramer and Dilweg too. As far as expecting different standards. Didn't Dilweg, play three different positions? Where Kramer, another era, played two, where as say a current player, specializes in one position? Teams have more players today? Also salaries are different. I know that Jerry and others had jobs on off season. Current players are paid to stay in condition all year round. Jerry was working a sledge hammer one summer to stay in condition, because he needed income to feed a wife and three babies. So I do believe standards are different. Lastly, all kinds of awards have been made up and handed out each tear. Where as Dilweg may have only earned so much, had he or Jerry played today, they both might have more honors then what they earned.
Ivo. I hope you don't feel that I am attacking you. You raised some interesting points and I learned from them. Granted some are old arguments, but not all. It was nice talking to u.

I see what you are saying about Tyrer. I agree, but I also believe two other things. One, Jerry played two positions which, in my mind, makes him more versitile, maybe better in some regards. Secondly, they are very close in honors, again, I wonder if Jerry hadnt been injured, if they would have the same credentials or even better. With that being said, Jerry falls just short of Tyrers records. Both should be in the hall. Sad to see that Tyrer is no longer with us. I didn't notice, but did Tyrer have any Super Bowl wins?
 

gwh11

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And did u see my last question? If Jerry hadn't been injured, do you think he would have earned more all pro selections? Just curious what your thoughts might be?
Quite possibly. And had injuries not derailed Sterling Sharpe's career, he'd be in the Hall by now.
But again, it's not just all about how many All-Pro teams he made, although that's typically a major factor.
Other guards in the Hall have just as many accolades, or more (Jim Parker, Tom Mack, etc.).
Kramer was definitely one of the best guards of his time, and deserves to be in the Hall.
But Dilweg was arguably the best at his position during his time.
 

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