Jerry Kramer, Dave Robinson, Bart Starr, and the HOF

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HardRightEdge

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HardRightEdge, IMO King contradicted his own reasoning. First he said the reason Kramer doesn’t deserve to be in the HOF is because his contemporaries passed on him so many times. Here he notes his contemporaries judged him to be one of the greatest linemen ever. So he ‘has an explanation’ for the former but admits he has “no explanation for something that happened in 1969…”. That’s the contradiction as I see it: Both in King’s words.

I can't say I read it that way, Thx.

King's first point seems to be that since he'd been passed over time and time again by contemporaries and senior committee members, then it's time to move on and not taint Robinson's opportunity with a Kramer/Robinson debate. The daughter seems to agree in wanting to focus just on Robinson in the current process. Seems reasonable to me.

The second point is actually a question...why did the same group of guys who named him to the 50 year team--and a sting of All Pro selections for that matter which I think is much more important than the 50 year team--keep him out of the Hall? "Curious" indeed.

There's no contradiction in believing the first point while wondering about the second. It's a matter of having an opinion based on what's known while acknowledging what is unknown.

As a PS, I think it worth nothing that the 50 year team was voted the year after Kramer retired. These kinds of votes are always biased toward the players of most recent memory. However, the All Pro selections cannot be denied.
 

JBlood

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Maybe I should re-read Instant Reply. I read it shortly after it came out and don't remember anything that would make me dislike Kramer, but it sure made me like the Packers even more. He should be in the HOF, pure and simple, and he'll get there eventually. BTW, don't forget Lou The Toe, who is in the HOF primarily due to his kicking.
 
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ivo610

ivo610

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And one last thing. The Pro Football Hall of Fame is/should be based on what a player did on the field. Not what he did off the field. Or else OJ Simpson should not still be in the hall.

Not entirely true... Google Jim Tyrer.
 
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ivo610

ivo610

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Hi all. I too was interested in the Peter King article. I have personal reason to wonder about it. As many of you know, I was involved in campaigning for dad's entrance into the Pro Football Hall of Fame. I promised dad that I would let this go, but I am having a hard time turning it loose. But so did Peter King and I have to address that article.

I don't know what's going on. So I thought I would bring it to this forum. As some of you know, we received a number of letters from Pro Football Hall of Famers that supported dad: http://share.snacktools.com/AB795DF569B/fzjlg5l9 I had written Bart and did not hear from him. I thought Bart was just very busy. I didn't expect to hear from him right away. But to be honest, I wasn't sure if I would hear from Bart at all. This whole hall of fame selection business is political and some guys (hall of famers) just don't want to get involved. An example of one of those guys is **** Butkus, who sent his nomination through his attorney to the PFHOF. Anyway. If you followed me on twitter and facebook or heard me do an interview, I said a number of different times, that I did not have Bart's support. I said that because it was the truth. That was one thing I learned from my father, be honest, no matter how painful it might be, be honest.

Lots of people asked me, "where's Bart's nomination?" and I would simply say, "I don't know." I had heard from a couple of media people that Bart championed Bob Skoronski. I mentioned this to dad. Dad said that made sense. Bob had the best grades and I was okay with that. I had also found out that Willie Davis championed Dave Robinson. Again, I mentioned this to dad and dad was okay with that. Dave and Willie were on defense together. But then we received a nomination from Willie. That's when I learned that guys could support more than one player for nomination.

So time passed and then out of the clear blue sky one day, Bart called my campaign manager, Randy Simon. You can read about that conversation here:
http://idahobusinessreview.com/2012/07/18/undoing-an-idaho-football-snub/
I also talked with Bart later and he reiterated the same things he said to Randy. So I finally had Bart's nod and that was wonderful. It really gave me more traction in my campaign. I was on cloud nine. So the senior selection announcement rolls around and nothing happens. Dad is not selected. I could have been bitter and really popped off. Dad could have been bitter and popped off. But seconds after I had told my dad that he hadn't been selected and that Dave Robinson had, we both knew it was RIGHT thing to do by appreciating what God had given us in this bid for the hall and to champion dad's teammate. Dad and I both really think the world of Dave and would never want to take anything away from such a deserving person. I do not know Dave's stats or anything about him, other than I know the way he has treated me over the years and for me thats enough to support him and anything he is involved with.

After the nominees were read, Dad and I were ready to get out of dodge and go fish. We wanted to let things cool off. We wanted just to be quiet and not talk about the Pro Football Hall of Fame or the campaign anymore. And we did, but then I come home to the Peter King article. I thought it was interesting. Same stuff I have heard from him before. Nothing new, nothing enlightening. What I did find interesting was his conversation with Bart. Especially the last sentence in which Peter was clearly trying to make a statement.

Here you have me and Randy Simon, who both had conversation with Bart. My campaign manager Randy, busted his butt trying to work on this campaign. Really great guy that helped me through a lot of ups and downs with this campaign. And me, just some chick from Boise, Id who wanted to see her dad go into the Pro Football hall of Fame and started campaigning on facebook.

Then you have Bart Starr. One of the most humble people I know. One of the most giving people I know. He has been a friend of the family for a long time. We receive a Christmas cards from him and his wife, Cherry, every year. Dad plays in his Lombardi Golf tournament every year. I know Bart and he knows me. He acknowledges me every time I see him, even if he surrounded by hundreds of people . He always asks me about my brothers and my mother. I think I know Bart Starr quite well for not growing up with him. At least I think I do. And I believe that Packer nation knows Bart Starr to be same. Honest, caring and giving.

And then we have Peter King. I don't know Peter King. I didn't know of him till I started this campaign for my dad and learned that he was a voter for the Pro Football Hall of Fame. I have never got to talk to him personally. I did receive a "tweet" from him in response to one of mine asking him what he needed to consider dad for the hall. I thought it was nice for him to answer me. And he did say that he "maybe" thought dad belonged in the hall. So I don't have anything bad to say about him.

So my question is this....what is the real truth? I know I am not lying and I don't think Bart Starr would fib me? I don't know Peter King well enough to say he is lying....but something isn't right here.....

I wrote Bart and an email the other day and shared the article with him. I am still waiting to hear back from him. I told him if he was uncomfortable addressing this, that he didn't have to respond. And I meant that. I believe Bart to be a classy guy who would not want to add any conflict (ie dad and the PFHOF) and all of this negative talk and detract from Dave Robinson. And I don't want to do that anymore. I'm tired of campaigning. Out of eighty candidates that were eligible to go before the senior selection committee, dad made top 15. Out of all the people I came across during this campaign, only a small percentage didn't support it. And most of the time it ended up being something personal. Most of the time people were saying something mean, instead of producing stats or figures that would lend to their argument. Only a few individuals had valid points and even then, they didn't say dad didn't belong or wasn't worthy.

I appreciate you letting me vent here. I really don't know what to think of the whole Peter King article. I am no Peter King. I don't have a column or a platform to speak from. I am a nobody compared to Peter King. So who's word will you believe? Probably not mine, but I just had to say something. To be honest, I am tired of the whole hall of fame talk. I wish it would just go away, but it won't. But I do know that dad and I have to move forward in our life and not dwell on this anymore. I do know that we support Dave and this is the last time I will talk about this, because we want to focus on Dave. I appreciate your personal feelings and opinions about dad, whether negative or positive. I am sure that they are justified in someway. But please, let me remind you, he is my dad. I love him and it hurts me to hear nasty things said about him. So I ask you, please be considerate and respectful towards me and my open letter to this forum. I sincerely appreciate it.

It's nice to be able to have someone who understood the topic of the thread. Some posters tried to spin it like Bart not being in favor of Jerry is old news, but to me and it seems to you, it was not. It would be nice to know where that comes from and it might shed more light on the situation. Might be lost to time though.

As far as Mr. King goes, I have known him for 4-5 years now and have found him to be fairly nice but have a slight ego. Still he has gone out of his way to do a favor a time or two with nothing in return. I think he enjoys his job and likes to be known.

I also think its a possibility that Jerry just slipped Mr. Starr's mind at the time of the interview.
 

TJV

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It's nice to be able to have someone who understood the topic of the thread.
You began the OP by writing: “Peter king had an interesting part in MMQB today that included an interview with Bart Starr and some opinion on the HOF. Here is the section I am talking about. What do you guys make of it?” You then quoted part of King’s MMQB. How was – for that matter how can – “What do you guys make of it?” be misunderstood? There really isn’t a “wrong answer” to that kind of open question, is there? Then after a few posts in spite of the fact you didn’t offer what you made of it, you figuratively ‘banged your head against wall’ apparently because no one read your mind.

As far as it being “old news” if you were directing that at me (and not regarding a thread started previously) all I can tell you is years ago after a HOF seniors selection Starr was interviewed on WTMJ. That wasn’t the only subject (I believe he was touting Rawhide Boys Ranch charity event) the host mentioned Kramer being passed over again and Starr talked about Skoronski (and perhaps Robinson) but not Kramer. That struck me as odd.
 

BOB KAMINSKI

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All of this settles in on locker room quotes,phone conversations,Lombardi players indifferences,lost love of some team mates for each other over the years. May be some jealousy over the years because of JK'S book writings and locker room tapings by JK that some of the "LOMBARDI PLAYERS" didn't appreciate him in doing them. But you know what? This sells news paper, books and lots of PC conversation and interest.
Well I'm a big "LOMBARDI FAN" and I was lucky to see the last touchdown scored for Coach Lombardi at Lambeau Field. It was the touchdown that BART STARR scored for the Packers to win the "ICE BOWL GAME" because of a "GREAT TEAM EFFORT" and "GOOD COACHING".
I'm waiting for the 50th anniversary of the ICE BOWL GAME Dec. 31-2017. WHY? Because I was at the game and hope to see what sports magazines and news papers have to say about the "LOMBARDI LEGENDS" and the "ICE BOWL GAME".
Please remember that without Lombardi coming to coach the PACKERS LEGENDS the playing of the ICE BOWL GAME and a GREAT TEAM EFFORT, there would have been "NO" book writings,locker room tapings etc.
Thanks to the Packer Legend of Coaches,Legend of Players and Legend of Fans from the 60's, the years of the Packers Legends. Oh how great they all were and how lucky I was to be part of it all.
My proof is at the Pro Football Hall of Fame in Canton,OH. It's a player bench I left Lambeau Field with at the end of the game. It was presented to the Pro Football Hall of Fame on Sept. 21-1975 in memory of a HELP FIGHT CANCER RUN from Canton, OH. to Two Rivers,WI. at Walsh Field the site of the Vince Lombardi Touch Football Charity Tournament 1971-1988.
See you all at the 50th ANNIVERSARY OF THE ICE BOWL GAME.
"LOMBARDI'S LAST at LAMBEAU"
Lets let by gones be by gones and let the LEGENDS learn to for give each other if there is any forgiving to be done.
 
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