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Jared Allen

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by thequick12, Mar 11, 2014.

  1. El Guapo
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    El Guapo Cheesehead

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    I'm still trying to reconcile these two statements:
    Either he benefited from that defense or he didn't
  2. rodell330
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    You can't help it can you? I's it really necessary to insult my intelligence? or where I attended college because I simply have an opinion? All I'm saying is that I don't think Eli Manning Is all that good, which is my opinion. Secondly, I said without that pass rush they don't win which is another opinion... Which actually may be more true than false. The moment people have opinions here come the insults smh. You're a Grown a$$ man right? smh. I'll let it go because I'm really trying to be nice.
  3. rodell330
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    Easy. He benefited from a great rush from the defensive line getting to Brady in both wins. The Giants defense isn't considered one of the all time greats even tho they came together in the playoffs .the Ravens and Bucs had two dominant defenses that are highly regraded as two of the best of all time because they did it all year. What's hard about that? Sorry if you're confused.
  4. rodell330
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    Exactly, Rodgers is better but Eli has two rings tho because the defense stepped up when they needed to. The Bears don't need Cutler to be Montana they just need him to manage the game. They are fixing the defense in hopes that they can have a defense that does what the Bucs and Ravens did. They could care less how much better Rodgers is than Cutler...they're more concerned with STOPPING him...and others at that.
  5. adambr2
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    Could they? Sure...Will they...probably not. There are literally 10-15 teams in the league that are probably good enough to have their D step up in January, get hot at the right time, and win it all. The Bears are just one of many.

    Allen is a nice piece for them, but they're not right now significantly better than they were last year.
  6. jaybadger82
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    You think Eli is "leaps ahead" of Cutler because he happened to win two rings behind a special pass rush and an offense built on an effective run game? -IMO, you're letting two rings distort your comparison of these two QBs.

    Big picture: Cutler and Manning are fairly similar talents.

    1) Ohio State sucks. (Sorry Rodell)
    2) The NFL was a different league just ten years ago. Johnson and Dilfer almost belong to different eras than Manning. Offenses in 2001 and 2003 didn't produce the gaudy QB stats that we've seen the past several years.
    3) These guys all played for teams that were carroed by exceptional defenses.
    4) For the most part, Johnson, Dilfer and Manning each played well in order for their teams to achieve a Super Bowl. But I think it's fair to say they didn't drive their teams to victory the way other QBs have (e.g., Joe Montana, Tom Brady, or Aaron Rodgers).
    5) IMO, Johnson, Dilfer and Manning belong in a conversation together because they go to show that it's at least possible to win a Super Bowl without one of the league's best QBs. If that was Rodell's point in bringing these guys up together, I agree with him.
    6) Now how the hell do we explain Flacco's Super Bowl? -A hot streak is the best I've got...

    If Cutler were running the offense opposite the league's best defense, there's a decent chance he might win a ring too. Fortunately, that won't be the case next year.

    BTW, in Trestman's offense (and barring injury), you can go ahead and mark Cutler down for better statistical production than Eli Manning in 2014.
  7. rodell330
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    They have a healthy lance Briggs back, Lamar Houston, jay Ratliff who is one of the better Dts in the league and Jared allen who is a top 3 d -end in the league ...plus Tillman back. If that doesn't make them significantly better from their horrid defense last yr then you're clearly looking at them as a Packers fan instead of realistically . Does Peppers make our D significantly better? As a Packers fan I would love to say yes but realistically he's just one piece. Allen by himself? No, but with those other guys? Yes.
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  8. ivo610
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    1. Ohio state does suck.
    2. League hasn't changed that much in a decade (or less in the comparison) Passing yards are a little inflated, thus left off my comparison.
    3. Eli wasn't carried. He wasn't the weak link. They never won in spite of him, several games they won because of him in those runs.
    4. Johnson n dilfer didn't turn the ball over. Eli played at an elevated level. There is a reason why he was given a huge contract and not cut immediately after the Super Bowl like one or the players you and roddell use to compare.
    5. It's very possible. In fact it happens all the time. Peyton manning has what seems like countless mvps but only 1 ring. Brady has never won a ring while being the tom Brady we know today. Rodgers and favre only have one each.
    6. Exactly that. He played well at the right time. Think rich Gannon winning a MVP, he played great for a stretch but isn't a great player.
    7. Of course. Cutler is a 8-15th best QB in the league. Give him a top 3 defense and he could very well win one.
    8. I have no idea what's going on with Eli. I do know he very much earned those rings after kicking our *** repeatedly. He wasn't a weak link.
  9. ivo610
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    Jarred Allen was ranked 34th among 4-3 DEs last season by PFF.
  10. adambr2
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    Briggs is not the player he used to be, and there's no telling how he'll be coming back from injury.

    Yes, they added Allen but also lost Peppers. Houston is a nice player. Not an elite one.

    Calling Ratliff one of the better DT's in the league is crazy talk. He was on the street in the middle of the season 5 months ago without a team. He's a guy. A rotation guy, and an aging one at that. Not much more.

    They are still going to be a team you can run all over. They've still got some issues in the secondary and are pretty weak inside. We'll see what they do in the draft.
  11. Raptorman
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    Raptorman Vikings fan since 1966.

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    Let's see who benefited from good defense.

    Eli's two Super Bowls.
    2007 Defense was ranked 17 in points given up and 7th in yards given up.
    2011 Defense was ranked 25 in points given up and 27 in yards given up.

    Brad Johnson
    2002 Defense was 1st in points and 1st in yards given up.

    Trent Dilfer, Only started 8 games.
    2000 Defense was 1st in points and 2nd in yardage given up.

    Aaron Rodgers
    2010 Defense was 2nd in points and 5th in yards given up.
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  12. rodell330
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    Well now.
  13. jaybadger82
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    I acknowledged that Manning, as well as Johnson and Dilfer, all played well in order for their teams to win a Super Bowl. I just don't think any of them demonstrated that "put the team on his back and carry them" level that elite QBs flash. So, yeah, I think he makes a fine example for the proposition that you don't need an exceptional QB to win a title.

    Let's take a closer look at Eli's stats during the Giants two Super Bowl runs: 9 TD passes over 4 playoff games in 2011 is not astronomical. He put three of those TDs up against Green Bay's abysmal defense that year. Eli's performance also declined when the games got important: in the NFC Championship and the Super Bowl he threw just three TDs combined. His passer ratings also dipped considerably. Almost an identical story in 2007, with Eli's numbers declining markedly in the NFC Championship and the Super Bowl. It's dangerous to draw any conclusion from such a small sample of games but I don't think he's the reason the Giants got over the hump. In his NFC Championship and Super Bowl appearances, his TD to INT totals look a lot more like Johnson and Dilfer.

    If you want to say Eli was a better QB than Johnson or Dilfer, I would probably agree with you. But, IMO, Eli remains a fine example of a Super Bowl winning QB that wasn't elite.

    The wheels fell off the running game in NY- that's what happened. When the G-men were winning, they had a reliable running game that made it easy for Eli to throw in play-action. When the younger Manning is leaned upon to drive a pass-first offense in the absence of a run game, the results are pretty piss poor.
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2014
  14. ivo610
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    Eli throws 3x as many post season TDs with only 1 int as dilfer and you want to group them together? Come on man

    As far as blaming Eli's decline on the giants run game..., you realize the giants had statistically THE WORST running game in the entire league during the last SB season right?
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  15. Oshkoshpackfan
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    Oshkoshpackfan USMC4EVER

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    Run game??? Please show me some bruising run game the NYG had, please. Eli was tossing the pig skin around and yes, they did have a stout pass rush. So, does Eli have 2 rings and jay cuntler have ZERO? Yes..... end of point.

    Edit*

    Jay cuntler: 8 years pro, 23,xxx yards passing, 155 Td's, no SB ring

    Eli Manning: 10 years pro, 35,xxx yards passing, 229 Td's, 2 SB rings

    Highly doubt that Jay cuntler has what it takes to throw 75 more Td's and 12,000 yards in 2 seasons to be able to close the gap to Eli statistically to make up for the two year difference so that isnt an excuse..... that is if Eli had just retired..... much less Jay get 2 rings ever......and for the record, I DONT even like Eli.
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2014
  16. captainWIMM
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    Only three QBs in the history of the NFL have thrown more than 9 TD passes in a single postseason. Aaron Rodgers had nine as well during the Packers 2010 run, and if I remember correctly he looked pretty awesome during those games.
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  17. NOMOFO
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    Agreed... this has been debated but Eli Manning is a solid QB if you give him a team around him.
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  18. Raptorman
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    Raptorman Vikings fan since 1966.

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    Yup. For 2015 with Allen's contract accounted for the Bears have a measly $42 million in est. cap space. But that's only twice the Packers $21 million of est. cap space for 2015. Cap hell for Chicago.
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  19. captainWIMM
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    True, but they have 29 free agents as well after next season.
  20. Einstein McFly
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    LOL, "win now win now win now" almost always leads to "win never win never win never". How do we know? Well, we can pay attention beyond preseason shrieking from folks like you and see how teams do that have to try to build through free agency. How have the raiders been lately? How did that dream team work out for the eagles two years ago? There bears might be better this year than last on the dline but buying four new guys up front is a totally inefficient way to run things long term. This same new dline that you're so worried about is actually costing them even more money when you realize that because of the desperate way they went after Peppers they're actually paying him way more (and way more is counting against the cap) than the Packers are this year. It's something like five against the cap for them and three for us. Does that sound like a smart way to run a team?
  21. Einstein McFly
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    This is what happens when you don't draft well and get good young players on the roster before they're needed. Briggs is only going to get older and I doubt he'll stay healthy all year. Tillman had three separate injuries last year. Ratlif WAS (read that again, W-A-S) one of the better DTs two or three years ago. Houston is a massive upgrade over McCllelan and Wooton but Allen doesn't play the run as well as Peppers. They absolutely needed to go get a guy who could rush the passer and they got one, but in the long run doing it this way will have a downside.
  22. jaybadger82
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    Well, the Giants were a rather mediocre team in the 2011 regular season (9-7 record) before their Super Bowl run.

    If NY had the worst run game in the regular season, that certainly wasn't the case for the playoffs. The Giants rolled up 466 yards on the ground in the post season that year, so their rushing game was clicking when the G-men made their title run. You'll note their worst rushing performance in the playoffs that year (against San Francisco) coincided with Eli's worst performance of that post-season, when he put up a measly 82.3 rating.

    I think it's pretty accurate to say Eli performs better when defenses must respect the Giants run game. I suppose you could say the about any QB, but it was the complete and utter collapse of the Giants run game in 2013 the seems to most correspond with Eli's shoddy season. He certainly can't carry an offense...

    I don't think that statistic is accurate. In addition to Rodgers and Eli, I believe both Joe Flacco and Kurt Warner have thrown 9 or more TDs in a single postseason. Do you have a source?

    Whatever the case, again I invite you to take a look at the stats (link embedded). Much of Eli's production in the 2011 postseason came against a mediocre Falcons defense and a remarkably porous Green Bay unit. Against the Niners and the Patriots Eli played well but I wouldn't call either performance awesome (3 TDs combined).

    IMO, Eli isn't what propelled that Giants team over the hump so to speak in 2011 and his 9 TD performance wasn't as rarefied as you suggest in today's passing NFL. Also, do you think playing an extra game in the wild card round had anything to do with accumulating 9 TDs?

    Well, if you're going to call him "cuntler," I wonder how objectively you're thinking about this.

    I've supplemented your data above in red so it wouldn't be so misleading. You'll note that Cutler has played only about 2/3 as many games as Eli, so of course he has accumulated fewer total passing yards, TDs and INTs. When we look at the averages, the picture becomes less distorted.

    Over his career, Eli has averaged about 231 passing yards per game and has a TD:INT ratio of about 1.34. "Cuntler" has averaged 230 passing yards per game and has a TD:INT ratio of about 1.38. Eli has a career passer rating of 81.2 while "Cuntler's" is slightly better at 84.6. Bottom line: that's remarkably similar production when you actually adjust for the number of games played (instead of just throwing out cumulative stats which are biased as hell in favor of the Eli because he's played 50% more games than "Cuntler").

    I'll give Eli credit for playing well when the Giants made their Super Bowl runs but my original point remains: in the big scheme of things, Eli and Cutler are very similar quarterback talents. To say Eli is "leaps ahead" of Cutler seems like an overstatement, which is why I quoted/criticized your earlier post.

    I guess I'm just not as fixated on Eli's Super Bowl rings as you seem to be. IMO, football is still a team game and Eli happened to be on a couple teams that got on a roll at the right time of year. He played well but he didn't carry those teams to the finish line. I think most people would agree that Eli has more rings than numerous QBs that are more talented objectively, including ARod.

    ...

    To summarize, IMO:
    (1) Eli Manning and Jay Cutler are similar QB talents. Neither is elite; and
    (2) Eli played well, but not spectacularly, for a couple of Giants teams that got hot at the right time of year. It's a team sport and I don't think Eli carried the franchise the way other Super Bowl winning QBs have.

    Just my opinion. Now I've given entirely too much time and attention to a topic I don't particularly care about, so you all can continue quibbling over this one without me. I suppose I'm much to blame for all the quibbling. Whatever the case, I'm done now.
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2014
  23. captainWIMM
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    http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_td_single_season_playoffs.htm

    I agree with you though that Cutler and Eli are on the same level in the regular season, Eli just happened to have two great playoff runs.
  24. Powarun
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    Which would explained the seemingly random text.
    "I hate the Bears more now" I got yesterday.
  25. jaybadger82
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    Ah, I see. So, in the last twenty years or so, six QBs have thrown for 9+ TDs in a single postseason. Meh.

    Eli was definitely a part of some great playoff runs.

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