It's all "catching" up with the Packers

[net]

The NFL system of dropping the winners to the bottom is starting to wear on the Packers depth. A second point in the team's slide(see stats) is Ted Thompson's insistence that he can find Pro Bowlers at the NFL's equivalent of the WalMart bargain bin.
The Packers are 2-3 in their last five games. Two of those victories were the result of the Packers outscoring teams rather than stopping them. In the Green Bay Press Gazette today, they have a column with Cliff Christl and Eric Baranczyk detailing how the loss of Nick Collins and Desmond Bishop and the slide of B.J. Raji has caused teams to feast up the middle on the Packers defense.
Woodson has also lost a step and D.J. Smith and the assortment of safeties/corners are nowhere as good as they were two years ago. The TV people were talking about what a great game A.J. Hawk had. Read the column to see another perspective. In short, the Packers defense is nowhere near as good as you might think. If you get a chance, the column is enlightening to say the least.

I thought Ted Thompson had lost his mind when he came to Green Bay. Then I got on the Ted bandwagon when some of his decisions proved to be good ones, like drafting Nick Collins, etc. and signing Woodson and Pickett and drafting Matthews. I'm slowly working back to the point where I think Ted is resorting back to the idea that you can find cheap rookies to replace veterans and they will do just fine. Wrong.
The 49'ers are a solid football team. They are smartly coached with a balanced offensive attack. Their defense is just outstanding. It's a contrast, as the 49'ers drafted smartly when they stunk and now with the addition of a truly great football mind in Jim Harbaugh, they really have something. I see the Packers continuing to slide backwards, largely because Ted and Mike think you can replace Charles Woodson at corner with Jarrett Bush and nothing will change.
The over-reliance of passing is also starting to catch up. Cedric Benson is a classic Ted move. We have Starks,(always hurt) Green(always hurt). So rather than look for a solid back in free agency or trade, you sign a guy off the scrap heap to start three weeks before the season.
The Packers have lots of cap space to sign players in the future, but right now the team could use some veteran help at linebacker and secondary and a running back, and all they have are marginal veterans and rookies.
It's all coming around. Expect 9-7 at best.

 

[Oshkoshpackfan]

^ couldn't agree more about looking for a solid free agent replacement. I said that before and got slammed for it. The opportunities were PLENTY this offseaseon with good running backs to help support the pass attack. The bears picked up M. Bush and the panthers got Mike Tolbert. Either one of those ground pounders would have been a great addition. Not saying Benson isnt better than what we currently have, but the other two mentioned are better than benson for sure. TT has made some great picks in the past, but you can easily google up his all time draft choices and see that there are WAY more busts than there are gems. He is only good at making picks like 20% of the time. That is to low for me to consider him a draft guru.

 

[longtimefan]

You seemed happy Benson was signed?


http://www.packerforum.com/threads/cedric-benson-to-the-pack.38210/page-4#post-457547

Benson is in: he's been durable. Starks is constantly injured, Green is coming off an....injury.....Seine is....injured.
Fact is Benson has stayed on the field. To have a credible running threat, you need a credible running back.

In this one game vs the Niners--- you went from so much hope to it us being 9-7

Our defense sucks, but have faith it will improve. We have a true star emerging in the kick return game, and a kicker and punter other teams would die to have.
Fact is the 2011 version of the Packers had too flawed of a defense to win it all, but we're still poised to challenge.
Drop the frustration and realize after some retooling, the team will be there again.

http://www.packerforum.com/threads/...et-this-off-my-chest.34742/page-5#post-433432

 

[Oshkoshpackfan]

LOL... I know your not speaking to me, but I am glad we signed Benson, don't get me wrong. He is better than what we have had since Ahman Green....lol. I have hope, but I also have doubt. I want us to win, but I am a realist, not a dreamer.

 

[FrankRizzo]

I agree with much of what the article says, and what you say.
But the Cedric Benson move is not a classic Ted move. IT was a great move, but with this pathetically-passive, femanine offensive line who cannot run-block anyone, it might not matter who runs the ball.

For some reason, quite a few people try to ignore how great Nick Collins was, and how great of an interior pass rusher Cullen Jenkins was. Just because we overcame a lot of injuries the prior year to mostly stiffs doesn't mean we can replace 2 great ones like Collins & Jenkins. Those losses were obviously enormous for the defense.

Losing Jenkins hurt the pass rush tremendously, which affected the whole pass defense including the back end.
Losing Collins, which is Ed Reed to us, affected the pass defense even more of course, and it added to the pressure on Tramon (playing injured), Shields, Bush, Woodson, and the key spots the new safeties. Burnett is totally overhyped. He's just okay at this point in his career because at that position, it takes time. It took Collins time. Remember his first 2 years they kept allowing big plays, and we kept hearing the "miss-communication" excuse. Well those are the things that take a lot of time to learn. Burnett has not had that yet.

And MD Jennings sucks. He was kind of starting? Wow.

The good news is that Matthews & Perry DID apply very good pressure compared to last year, plus we have Dezman Moses and an improved Eric Walden back at OLB. We're good there.

DJ Smith better improve fast though, and Hawk needs to start justifying A) his fat contract and B) his draft status.

Despite our femanine offensive line run blocking, I think our offense will be just fine as long as the refs don't keep allowing the DB's to hold, ******, accost our receivers beyond 5 yards. They need to get a memo on that.

Everyone knows Rodgers is the engine that drives this train, and RYTHYMN and timing are the key to him. When they grab & tug on our receivers, it messes that whole thing up.

 

[Oshkoshpackfan]

After watching the ravens game last night and how their O line had their way with the bengals D line.....I realized how pathetic our O line is at run blocking and creating hole and lanes for the runner. Granted they do have Ray Rice, but you could have driven a cargo van through some of the holes their line was making for him. We need to take some notes from the power running teams.

 

[13 Times Champs]

I have a lot of work to do today so I can't spend a lot of time researching things but I'm sure someone will address your post. If you are saying we are paying the price for picking players late then I think we have done well with guys like Jordy, Jennings, Bishop (can't help he got hurt), Bulaga, Sitton, add to the list everybody. Way too soon to tell about this rookie crop.

You have held up the 49ers as the standard but it appears to me they have taken the same approach as the Packers and that is build through the draft. Where was this Aldon Smith guy drafted for instance? There are plenty of lower round draft picks on their roster.

We are no ways as bad off as you have presented.

 

[bozz_2006]

Not to throw too much water on this flame-fest, because by and large I agree. But we did play the 49ers, who I think are the class of the nfl this year. Excellent teams have a knack for making good teams look bad. Give the young guys on D some time. They can learn what they're supposed to do during preseason, but it takes regular season playing time for them to figure out how to actually do what they're supposed to do. It was week one. We played a fantastic football team that had little turnover and major upgrades last season, and we are a team in a lot of transition. They don't give trophies for week one champs. This loss was no fun, but I'm anxious to see how our guys respond.

 

[Oshkoshpackfan]

TT DRAFT HISTORY:

20051/24 - QB Aaron Rodgers
2/51 - S Nick Collins*
2/58 - WR Terrence Murphy*
4/115 - S Marviel Underwood
4/125 - LB Brady Poppinga
5/143 - OL Junius Coston
5/167 - CB Mike Hawkins
6/180 - DE Mike Montgomery
6/195 - WR Craig Bragg
7/245 - LB Kurt Campbell
7/246 - OL Will Whitticker

2006
1/5 - LB A.J. Hawk
2/47 - OL Daryn Colledge
2/52 - WR Greg Jennings
3/67 - LB Abdul Hodge
3/75 - OL Jason Spitz
4/104 - WR Cory Rodgers
4/115 - CB Will Blackmon
5/148 - QB Ingle Martin
5/165 - OL Tony Moll
6/183 - DT Johnny Jolly
6/185 - S Tyrone Culver
7/253 - DE Dave Tollefson

2007
1/16 - DT Justin Harrell
2/63 - RB Brandon Jackson
3/78 - WR James Jones
3/89 - FS Aaron Rouse
4/119 - OL Allen Barbre
5/157 - WR David Clowney
6/191 - FB Korey Hall
6/192 - LB Desmond Bishop
6/193 - K Mason Crosby
7/228 - RB DeShawn Wynn
7/243 - TE Clark Harris

2008
2/36 - WR Jordy Nelson
2/56 - QB Brian Brohm
2/60 - CB Pat Lee
3/91 - TE Jermichael Finley
4/102 - DE Jeremy Thompson*
4/135 - OL Josh Sitton
5/150 - OL Breno Giacomini
7/209 - QB Matt Flynn
7/217 - WR Brett Swain

2009
1/9 - DT B.J. Raji
1/26 - LB Clay Matthews
4/109 - OL T.J. Lang
5/145 - FB Quinn Johnson
5/162 - OL Jamon Meredith
6/182 - DE Jarius Wynn
6/187 - CB Brandon Underwood
7/218 - LB Brad Jones

2010
1/23 - OT Bryan Bulaga
2/56 - DE Mike Neal
3/71 - S Morgan Burnett
5/154 - TE Andrew Quarless
5/169 - OL Marshall Newhouse
6/193 - RB James Starks
7/230 - DL C.J. Wilson

2011
1/32 - OT Derek Sherrod
2/64 - WR Randall Cobb
3/96 - RB Alex Green
4/131 - CB Davon House
5/141 - TE D.J. Williams
6/179 - OG Caleb Schlauderaff
6/186 - LB D.J. Smith
6/197 - LB Ricky Elmore
7/218 - TE Ryan Taylor
7/233 - DE Lawrence Guy

2012
1/28 - DE/OLB Nick Perry
2/51 - DT Jerel Worthy
2/62 - CB Casey Hayward
4/132 - DT Mike Daniels
4/133 - FS Jerron McMillian
5/163 - LB Terrell Manning
7/241 - OT Andrew Datko
7/243 - QB B.J. Coleman

Looks to me like he gets a couple good guys each year, but there WAY to many no-namers and busts on that list as well. The names in red are no longer with the team.

 

[Justanobserver]

The NFL system of dropping the winners to the bottom is starting to wear on the Packers depth. A second point in the team's slide(see stats) is Ted Thompson's insistence that he can find Pro Bowlers at the NFL's equivalent of the WalMart bargain bin.
The Packers are 2-3 in their last five games. Two of those victories were the result of the Packers outscoring teams rather than stopping them. In the Green Bay Press Gazette today, they have a column with Cliff Christl and Eric Baranczyk detailing how the loss of Nick Collins and Desmond Bishop and the slide of B.J. Raji has caused teams to feast up the middle on the Packers defense.
Woodson has also lost a step and D.J. Smith and the assortment of safeties/corners are nowhere as good as they were two years ago. The TV people were talking about what a great game A.J. Hawk had. Read the column to see another perspective. In short, the Packers defense is nowhere near as good as you might think. If you get a chance, the column is enlightening to say the least.

I thought Ted Thompson had lost his mind when he came to Green Bay. Then I got on the Ted bandwagon when some of his decisions proved to be good ones, like drafting Nick Collins, etc. and signing Woodson and Pickett and drafting Matthews. I'm slowly working back to the point where I think Ted is resorting back to the idea that you can find cheap rookies to replace veterans and they will do just fine. Wrong.
The 49'ers are a solid football team. They are smartly coached with a balanced offensive attack. Their defense is just outstanding. It's a contrast, as the 49'ers drafted smartly when they stunk and now with the addition of a truly great football mind in Jim Harbaugh, they really have something. I see the Packers continuing to slide backwards, largely because Ted and Mike think you can replace Charles Woodson at corner with Jarrett Bush and nothing will change.
The over-reliance of passing is also starting to catch up. Cedric Benson is a classic Ted move. We have Starks,(always hurt) Green(always hurt). So rather than look for a solid back in free agency or trade, you sign a guy off the scrap heap to start three weeks before the season.
The Packers have lots of cap space to sign players in the future, but right now the team could use some veteran help at linebacker and secondary and a running back, and all they have are marginal veterans and rookies.
It's all coming around. Expect 9-7 at best.

Lots of whining going on. It's only one game guys! The Packers are poised to compete for the Lombardi trophy for years to come. Do you knuckleheads know why? I will tell you why, the Packers have a young talented QB and if he stays healthy the Packers will be competitive every year. As far as the 49 ers kicking our butts, things change over a season. The Pack could very well meet up with them again and beat them in the playoffs (any given Sunday). The Packers build through the draft primarily, that is a good thing not bad. This in theory should free up cash for selective free agent signings to help the team stay on top. The Pack will be 1-1 after Thursday night and all of the potential cliff jumpers will be saying the team is headed for the SB again. Ted Thompson is a good GM!

 

[tstej]

TT DRAFT HISTORY:

20051/24 - QB Aaron Rodgers
2/51 - S Nick Collins*
2/58 - WR Terrence Murphy*
4/115 - S Marviel Underwood
4/125 - LB Brady Poppinga
5/143 - OL Junius Coston
5/167 - CB Mike Hawkins
6/180 - DE Mike Montgomery
6/195 - WR Craig Bragg
7/245 - LB Kurt Campbell
7/246 - OL Will Whitticker

2006
1/5 - LB A.J. Hawk
2/47 - OL Daryn Colledge
2/52 - WR Greg Jennings
3/67 - LB Abdul Hodge
3/75 - OL Jason Spitz
4/104 - WR Cory Rodgers
4/115 - CB Will Blackmon
5/148 - QB Ingle Martin
5/165 - OL Tony Moll
6/183 - DT Johnny Jolly
6/185 - S Tyrone Culver
7/253 - DE Dave Tollefson

2007
1/16 - DT Justin Harrell
2/63 - RB Brandon Jackson
3/78 - WR James Jones
3/89 - FS Aaron Rouse
4/119 - OL Allen Barbre
5/157 - WR David Clowney
6/191 - FB Korey Hall
6/192 - LB Desmond Bishop
6/193 - K Mason Crosby
7/228 - RB DeShawn Wynn
7/243 - TE Clark Harris

2008
2/36 - WR Jordy Nelson
2/56 - QB Brian Brohm
2/60 - CB Pat Lee
3/91 - TE Jermichael Finley
4/102 - DE Jeremy Thompson*
4/135 - OL Josh Sitton
5/150 - OL Breno Giacomini
7/209 - QB Matt Flynn
7/217 - WR Brett Swain

2009
1/9 - DT B.J. Raji
1/26 - LB Clay Matthews
4/109 - OL T.J. Lang
5/145 - FB Quinn Johnson
5/162 - OL Jamon Meredith
6/182 - DE Jarius Wynn
6/187 - CB Brandon Underwood
7/218 - LB Brad Jones

2010
1/23 - OT Bryan Bulaga
2/56 - DE Mike Neal
3/71 - S Morgan Burnett
5/154 - TE Andrew Quarless
5/169 - OL Marshall Newhouse
6/193 - RB James Starks
7/230 - DL C.J. Wilson

2011
1/32 - OT Derek Sherrod
2/64 - WR Randall Cobb
3/96 - RB Alex Green
4/131 - CB Davon House
5/141 - TE D.J. Williams
6/179 - OG Caleb Schlauderaff
6/186 - LB D.J. Smith
6/197 - LB Ricky Elmore
7/218 - TE Ryan Taylor
7/233 - DE Lawrence Guy

2012
1/28 - DE/OLB Nick Perry
2/51 - DT Jerel Worthy
2/62 - CB Casey Hayward
4/132 - DT Mike Daniels
4/133 - FS Jerron McMillian
5/163 - LB Terrell Manning
7/241 - OT Andrew Datko
7/243 - QB B.J. Coleman

Looks to me like he gets a couple good guys each year, but there WAY to many no-namers and busts on that list as well. The names in red are no longer with the team.

Go look at other teams drafts. Teams don't get but maybe 1 stud or if they are lucky 2 studs per draft. Thompson drafts just fine you just can't fix everything in one draft.

 

[PFanCan]

The NFL system of dropping the winners to the bottom is starting to wear on the Packers depth. A second point in the team's slide(see stats) is Ted Thompson's insistence that he can find Pro Bowlers at the NFL's equivalent of the WalMart bargain bin.
The Packers are 2-3 in their last five games. Two of those victories were the result of the Packers outscoring teams rather than stopping them. In the Green Bay Press Gazette today, they have a column with Cliff Christl and Eric Baranczyk detailing how the loss of Nick Collins and Desmond Bishop and the slide of B.J. Raji has caused teams to feast up the middle on the Packers defense.
Woodson has also lost a step and D.J. Smith and the assortment of safeties/corners are nowhere as good as they were two years ago. The TV people were talking about what a great game A.J. Hawk had. Read the column to see another perspective. In short, the Packers defense is nowhere near as good as you might think. If you get a chance, the column is enlightening to say the least.

I thought Ted Thompson had lost his mind when he came to Green Bay. Then I got on the Ted bandwagon when some of his decisions proved to be good ones, like drafting Nick Collins, etc. and signing Woodson and Pickett and drafting Matthews. I'm slowly working back to the point where I think Ted is resorting back to the idea that you can find cheap rookies to replace veterans and they will do just fine. Wrong.
The 49'ers are a solid football team. They are smartly coached with a balanced offensive attack. Their defense is just outstanding. It's a contrast, as the 49'ers drafted smartly when they stunk and now with the addition of a truly great football mind in Jim Harbaugh, they really have something. I see the Packers continuing to slide backwards, largely because Ted and Mike think you can replace Charles Woodson at corner with Jarrett Bush and nothing will change.
The over-reliance of passing is also starting to catch up. Cedric Benson is a classic Ted move. We have Starks,(always hurt) Green(always hurt). So rather than look for a solid back in free agency or trade, you sign a guy off the scrap heap to start three weeks before the season.
The Packers have lots of cap space to sign players in the future, but right now the team could use some veteran help at linebacker and secondary and a running back, and all they have are marginal veterans and rookies.
It's all coming around. Expect 9-7 at best.

I think you are being overly negative. Are the Packers as good as us homers think they are? No, probably not. Are they still legit contenders? Absolutely. The 49ers clearly are the better team, and there are perhaps a few other teams that could say the same thing, but not many.

I disagree in that Benson was a poor move. I think he brings a viable running threat. Time will tell.

 

[ivo610]

1 loss and the fans are jumping ship. Wow.

Do people expect to see an immediate replacement for nick collins? I dont think replacing a pro bowler is as easy as people make it out to be. Yeah its easy to say grab Michael Bush, but to change the O line make up into a run oriented style would take alot of work and changes on the line.

This team is built very similar to what you saw in Indy and NE the past few years. Granted NE takes alot more chances on washed up talent but the overall make up of the team is the same.

And "over reliance on passing"? Why does this misconception keep getting brought up? We were middle of the road last season in the nfl in passing attempts through 15 games that Rodgers started.

This is a 12-4 team with some holes in it.

 

[warhawk]

First of all I don't see how anybody can complain about TT's draft history. I highly doubt any GM has pulled more Pro-Bowl Players out of the draft and it's not like we're drafting out of the top tier year in-year out. On top of that he has gotten very solid starters out of the second half of the draft, and again, TT has to wait until the bottom tier of every round to make a selection or sacrifice picks to move up.
Secondly, TT knows what he's up against to keep the top players on this team and some huge contracts are going to have to come about shortly or we lose big time players.
Lastly, it was pretty much a consensus among those here that the defense probably wasn't going to be playing at it's best early and it hasn't helped that Bishop and House went down before it started. I'm as dismayed as anyone that they didn't put on a better show Sunday. I stated in another thread that I thought the run recognition and pursuit was poor but that I think they can fix. I am worried more about the continuing miscommunication and the fact they have Bush out there at corner who cannot cover.
It's a work in progress and there are issues that have to be worked out but I see this as they can and will get better vs. they cannot and won't.

 

[fettpett]

The only thing, as far as our running game goes, I feel MM has truly failed at is the zone-blocking scheme. I know he uses it far less than he use to, but one of the things that made Green Bay such a good team was the power blocking that they used for years. Benson fits that kind of run scheme much better than what we have currently.

The other aspect is the screen pass. It was practically a staple of the Packers offense from 92-07, we were probably THE BEST at running it during most of that time and took us to 2 Super Bowls.

I would love to see those two things come back, but idk if we have the personnel for it anymore.

That all said, TT and MM did try to fix many of the issues from last year during the draft. The other thing is that many underestimated Nick Collins role on this team and how important he was to make it the #5(?) Defense in the League in 2010, and how important he was prior. Cullen Jenkins...eh, we probably would have been fine overall if Collin's hadn't gotten hurt.

Now what Woodson needs to do is step up and BE Collins in the Secondary and Campers needs to put him there. Let McMillian learn over the course of the next couple of years and be able to take over, but put Woodson in that role till he gets it.

 

[13 Times Champs]

September 8th we were viewed as the most solid team in the NFL. September 11 we are spiraling downward.

 

[Darth Garfunkel]

One loss and you'd think the team bus drove off a cliff.
We lost some games in 2010 too.

 

[TJV]

Expect 9-7 at best.

I just wanted to preserve this. I see two flaws in the OP: It says the 9ers drafted smartly when they stunk it up - remember Thompson didn't have the "benefit" of stinking it up like the 9ers did. Just imagine what would be posted on sites like this if he had:

In the first round over the past 8 years the 9ers have picked:
1st, 6th and 22nd, 11th and 17th, 29th, 10th, 11th and 28th, 7th, and 30th.

The Packers:
24th, 5th, 16th, 30th*, 9th and 26th, 23rd, 32nd, and 28th. *traded down to 36 to pick Nelson.

SF picked 11th or better 6 times, the Packers twice.

The second flaw IMO is posting the Packers have lots of cap space to sign players in the future. If Thompson signed big name UFAs this season, they'd have less cap space in the future. Rodgers is going to cost a lot. Matthews is going to cost a lot. Even Raji will eat up significant cap space as Jennings will if they re-sign him. Which of these players shouldn't be extended so Thompson could have signed expensive UFAs?

 

[13 Times Champs]

Jack that was the post I was waiting for.

 

[HyponGrey]

I lol'd at the OP when it said that Green is always injured. One knee injury his rookie year, last year, and all of a sudden he's Justin Harrell. Also lol'd at "Woodson needs to be Collins." Lets burn our cap space for FA and wait for the NFL to start voiding contracts so we can lose all of our star players and start rebuilding. Just think, we can 0-16 in 2015! Short sighted. Kind of whiny.

Someone please pull up our UDFA list. We can add them to the players TT brought to the franchise.

 

[SpartaChris]

I said it previously- To go 12-4 you have to actually lose 4.

I also think some of you need to temper your expectations. You don't become a top tier defense overnight. SF spent YEARS building theirs to get to the point they're at now. Building a defensive power house takes time, and with several rookies already seeing time in the starting lineup, patience is required.

 

[Shawnsta3]

This thread is a train wreck. Omg.

TT is a good GM. He is good at drafting. Don't let those mean Chicago fans down the street tell you any different.

No, the answer is not to sign up a bunch of free agents. How did that solve the problems for the Eagles "dream team"?

Yes CM3 is beast.

Yes the middle of our defense is beat up quite a bit. No, all is not lost. The basis of this team in 2010 was having another guy step up. Another guy will step up.

Yes we could use a little more aggressiveness and a little less finesse. You know how that happens?? Tackling better.

This forum has been a wreck the last week. I get that most of you aren't used to the Packers losing this much but jeez.