Do YOU owe Dom an apology too?

[NOMOFO]

You have a right to your opinion, even if it is in error. I have to agree with the Sports writers here. JSO WSJ and GBG writers all gave Raji high marks right up until Rodgers went down and Raji's play dropped off a cliff.

Of all the things written on this forum, that is the most ridiculous. First, that anyone is giving him "high marks" for any portion of his season. That shows a monumental lack of having anything resembling a clue. Second, the idea that Rodgers going down, the Packers QB on offense, caused this giant drop in Raji's play on defense?! I can be sold that Jolly going down will have a negative impact on Raji, but it can't be an excuse for him not even existing out there!

 

[Powarun]

Nope, never went for Caper's head. Bush blew that play, knew it the second it happened, sadly guessed correctly that Shields going down would cost us the game do to a replacement CB. Give some rookies experience and maybe attempt to stop our own offense in practice and they should get better. In terms of all 32 teams in the NFL I feel the Packers are lopsided in talent of Offense vs Defense and Special teams. Only reason I would blame Capers is he may need to check what his team will do than what they are supposed to do.

 

[Forderick]

Of all the things written on this forum, that is the most ridiculous. First, that anyone is giving him "high marks" for any portion of his season. That shows a monumental lack of having anything resembling a clue. Second, the idea that Rodgers going down, the Packers QB on offense, caused this giant drop in Raji's play on defense?! I can be sold that Jolly going down will have a negative impact on Raji, but it can't be an excuse for him not even existing out there!

Why not, maybe he is emotionally fragile? It is possible but not likely.

 

[easyk83]

Of all the things written on this forum, that is the most ridiculous. First, that anyone is giving him "high marks" for any portion of his season. That shows a monumental lack of having anything resembling a clue. Second, the idea that Rodgers going down, the Packers QB on offense, caused this giant drop in Raji's play on defense?! I can be sold that Jolly going down will have a negative impact on Raji, but it can't be an excuse for him not even existing out there!

Wowzers another gem from NOMOFO. Raji plays to the expectation of a win. With Rodgers playing Raji was very stout in the middle, he was grading out well by sports writers and the Team's coaching staff. You can state your unfounded opinion as much as you like, something you're quite accomplished with. I however like relying on source material when possible, statistics when relevant and the opinions of coaches/professional writers. Tell me how do you explain the team's run defense going from one of the best units in the league to the worst in the league in the matter of weeks despite recovering key personnel? The only difference was Rodgers' injury. You think the team reportedly offered Raji 8 million per annum because the front office liked his dancing ability?

September 8, 2013- November 3, 2013 Packer run defense ranks among the best units in the league. Coaches routinely praise Raji's work in the middle of the Defense, Sports Writers note his ability to clog the inside run defense even when playing out of the nickel front. Packers reportedly offer Raji 8 million per annum, details sparse.

November 4- December 28, 2013- Packer run defense begins performing at a historically poor level. Coaches go silent on Raji's play, and sports writers begin criticizing Raji for poor play and a lack of toughness/grit inside. Packer run defense struggles against even mediocre rushing attacks.

December 29, 2013- Packer run defense improves noticeably in the interior at Chicago, still struggles to contain strong side runs. On January 5, 2014, Packer run defense holds Frank Gore to 3.3 ypc.

As for Chicago anyone want to rip my assessment get off your butt and look at the drive chart. Matt Forte was generally ineffective when running at the left side of the defense and into the middle were. Most of his yards came from counter runs off the right guard and right tackle. As I recall his two longest runs of the night in particular occurred when the SS failed to provide strong side contain.

 

[weeds]

I don't see anything in the OP except a link but no I don't owe Capers an apology.

Yeah, me neither.

 

[I asked LT to delete my acct]

Yeah, me neither.

agreed.

 

[HyponGrey]

No. I was never ******* Capers, but I still feel he needs to be replaced. For all the love I could give him, the last two games his personnel decisions were atrocious, and it almost seems that Capers only steps up when someone important goes down. I believe that the time for change is at hand at least for the Position Coaches. He's the best zone defense coach in a man defense league.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Wowzers another gem from NOMOFO. Raji plays to the expectation of a win. With Rodgers playing Raji was very stout in the middle, he was grading out well by sports writers and the Team's coaching staff. You can state your unfounded opinion as much as you like, something you're quite accomplished with. I however like relying on source material when possible, statistics when relevant and the opinions of coaches/professional writers. Tell me how do you explain the team's run defense going from one of the best units in the league to the worst in the league in the matter of weeks despite recovering key personnel? The only difference was Rodgers' injury. You think the team reportedly offered Raji 8 million per annum because the front office liked his dancing ability?

September 8, 2013- November 3, 2013 Packer run defense ranks among the best units in the league. Coaches routinely praise Raji's work in the middle of the Defense, Sports Writers note his ability to clog the inside run defense even when playing out of the nickel front. Packers reportedly offer Raji 8 million per annum, details sparse.

November 4- December 28, 2013- Packer run defense begins performing at a historically poor level. Coaches go silent on Raji's play, and sports writers begin criticizing Raji for poor play and a lack of toughness/grit inside. Packer run defense struggles against even mediocre rushing attacks.

December 29, 2013- Packer run defense improves noticeably in the interior at Chicago, still struggles to contain strong side runs. On January 5, 2014, Packer run defense holds Frank Gore to 3.3 ypc.

As for Chicago anyone want to rip my assessment get off your butt and look at the drive chart. Matt Forte was generally ineffective when running at the left side of the defense and into the middle were. Most of his yards came from counter runs off the right guard and right tackle. As I recall his two longest runs of the night in particular occurred when the SS failed to provide strong side contain.

Writers have been criticizing Raji's play for far longer than the timeline you give above, at least those guys that watch and analyze the game, not just listen to coachespeak.

November was also the month when Pickett began to have knee issues and miss practice time. November also featured an injured Johnny Jolly (he missed the Vikings game with a groin injury).

I can understand why some people feel like Raji was playing well. Last year he was actually pretty solid at DE and the coaches bend over backwards to make excuses for the guy. He is decent to good at stopping the run (a guy that was truly terrific at run defense would have more than 17 tackles). Problem is that he's not ELITE at stopping the run and he's downright awful at rushing the passer. That's not what you expect from a top-10 draft pick. I mean, Daniels looks like a top-10 draft pick while Raji looks like a fourth rounder.

 

[easyk83]

Writers have been criticizing Raji's play for far longer than the timeline you give above, at least those guys that watch and analyze the game, not just listen to coachespeak.

November was also the month when Pickett began to have knee issues and miss practice time. November also featured an injured Johnny Jolly (he missed the Vikings game with a groin injury).

I can understand why some people feel like Raji was playing well. Last year he was actually pretty solid at DE and the coaches bend over backwards to make excuses for the guy. He is decent to good at stopping the run (a guy that was truly terrific at run defense would have more than 17 tackles). Problem is that he's not ELITE at stopping the run and he's downright awful at rushing the passer. That's not what you expect from a top-10 draft pick. I mean, Daniels looks like a top-10 draft pick while Raji looks like a fourth rounder.

BJ Raji was hyped as an elite run defender with some pass rush ability thrown in, that's why he was drafted. As for these Sports Writers, who are they because I didn't see anyone criticizing Raji until after Rodgers' injury.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

BJ Raji was hyped as an elite run defender with some pass rush ability thrown in, that's why he was drafted. As for these Sports Writers, who are they because I didn't see anyone criticizing Raji until after Rodgers' injury.

17 tackles isn't an elite run defender. I don't care if his only job is to "occupy" blockers. Name ONE other elite run defender that averages one tackle a game. There isn't one. As for his expectations, he was supposed to be a dominant, game changing NT. You don't draft elite run defenders with minimal pass rush skilss at #9.

Writers that have mentioned Raji's underwhelming performance: Football Outsiders, Pro Football Focus, Silverstein has written comments from other team's executives saying that Raji is a solid player, not great. I'd be curious what writers you've been reading that have said that Raji is a great dlineman.

 

[FrankRizzo]

2011 NFL Draft:

Pick #131 Green Bay Packers, Cornerback Davon House, New Mexico St
Pick #141 Green Bay Packers, Tight End DJ Williams, Arkansas
Pick #154 Seattle Seahawks, Cornerback Richard Sherman, Stanford

• Who does the scouting?
• Who makes the selections?
• Capers or Thompson?
• If Thompson ignores the other tools of roster assembly, such as adding fair-priced NFL veteran free agents like Seattle this past off-season added Michael Bennett and Cliff Avril, than Ted cannot make misses like this.
• At that ^ point in the draft, there probably were a handful of CB's he could have chosen from his board. He took House. Seattle took Sherman.
  Which has made Seattle's defense so much better than ours, A) them adding 2 proven GOOD NFL pass rushers in Avril & Bennett, or B) them getting the right CB here that we didn't?
  
  I don't understand why we never draft guys from Stanford or Notre Dame. Zero on our roster. Do we only have Pac-10 scouts out west for UCLA and USC? (edit, we just signed street free agent Chase Thomas who played at Stanford)

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Seahawks 2010 Draft:
LT Russell Okung
S Earl Thomas
WR Golden Tate
S Kam Chancellor

Seahawks 2012 Draft
DE/OLB Bruce Irvin
ILB Bobby Wagner
QB Russell Wilson

This off-season, Seattle, already coming off an NFC Final-4 appearance last year with rookie QB Russell Wilson, added the following VETERAN players to their roster, in addition to still participating in the NFL Draft:

• WR Percy Harvin
• DE Cliff Avril
  
• DE Michael Bennett
  
• DT Tony McDaniel

Now you all know Harvin has not paid any dividends as he's barely played, and he cost them their #1 draft pick last draft (2013). But they knew the player they were getting as he had done well vs NFL competition. Same with those D-linemen. They weren't high-priced Pro Bowlers. But they, like Terrance Knighton on Denver today at NT, were proven vets.
Contrast that to taking guys in Rds 1 and 2 and banking on them making you better. How much better did rookies Nick Perry & Jerel Worthy make us last year? How about Datone Jones this year?

I guarantee you Dom Capers is pretty tired of his boss giving him so many raw rookies, expecting him to develop them into NFL studs overnight, while other teams like the Hawks and Niners (Justin Smith, Ahmad Brooks, Donte Whitner, Carlos Rogers, Glen Dorsey) add talented FA's in addition to drafting the right guys (Bowman, Willis, Aldon Smith).

Yes I owe Capers an apology.

 

[Carl]

2011 NFL Draft:

Pick #131 Green Bay Packers, Cornerback Davon House, New Mexico St
Pick #141 Green Bay Packers, Tight End DJ Williams, Arkansas
Pick #154 Seattle Seahawks, Cornerback Richard Sherman, Stanford

• Who does the scouting?
• Who makes the selections?
• Capers or Thompson?
• If Thompson ignores the other tools of roster assembly, such as adding fair-priced NFL veteran free agents like Seattle this past off-season added Michael Bennett and Cliff Avril, than Ted cannot make misses like this.
• At that ^ point in the draft, there probably were a handful of CB's he could have chosen from his board. He took House. Seattle took Sherman.
  Which has made Seattle's defense so much better than ours, A) them adding 2 proven GOOD NFL pass rushers in Avril & Bennett, or B) them getting the right CB here that we didn't?
  
  I don't understand why we never draft guys from Stanford or Notre Dame. Zero on our roster. Do we only have Pac-10 scouts out west for UCLA and USC? (edit, we just signed street free agent Chase Thomas who played at Stanford)

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Seahawks 2010 Draft:
LT Russell Okung
S Earl Thomas
WR Golden Tate
S Kam Chancellor

Seahawks 2012 Draft
DE/OLB Bruce Irvin
ILB Bobby Wagner
QB Russell Wilson

This off-season, Seattle, already coming off an NFC Final-4 appearance last year with rookie QB Russell Wilson, added the following VETERAN players to their roster, in addition to still participating in the NFL Draft:

• WR Percy Harvin
• DE Cliff Avril
  
• DE Michael Bennett
  
• DT Tony McDaniel

Now you all know Harvin has not paid any dividends as he's barely played, and he cost them their #1 draft pick last draft (2013). But they knew the player they were getting as he had done well vs NFL competition. Same with those D-linemen. They weren't high-priced Pro Bowlers. But they, like Terrance Knighton on Denver today at NT, were proven vets.
Contrast that to taking guys in Rds 1 and 2 and banking on them making you better. How much better did rookies Nick Perry & Jerel Worthy make us last year? How about Datone Jones this year?

I guarantee you Dom Capers is pretty tired of his boss giving him so many raw rookies, expecting him to develop them into NFL studs overnight, while other teams like the Hawks and Niners (Justin Smith, Ahmad Brooks, Donte Whitner, Carlos Rogers, Glen Dorsey) add talented FA's in addition to drafting the right guys (Bowman, Willis, Aldon Smith).

Yes I owe Capers an apology.

Every other GM in the league passed on Sherman as well. Pretty harsh to blame Thompson for this one.

 

[FrankRizzo]

Every other GM in the league passed on Sherman as well. Pretty harsh to blame Thompson for this one.

Sure.
But A) I credit Seattle for taking him, and B) Thompson clearly graded House higher than Sherman because they were taken pretty close apart, on the drafts final day.

Did Thompson mis-evaluate those 2 players?
Or has coaching made Sherman an All-Pro and House still a dime corner still?

I just don't know why we never draft Stanford or Notre Dame guys.
I want Troy Nicklas this year from Notre Dame.

 

[adambr2]

Wowzers another gem from NOMOFO. Raji plays to the expectation of a win. With Rodgers playing Raji was very stout in the middle, he was grading out well by sports writers and the Team's coaching staff. You can state your unfounded opinion as much as you like, something you're quite accomplished with. I however like relying on source material when possible, statistics when relevant and the opinions of coaches/professional writers. Tell me how do you explain the team's run defense going from one of the best units in the league to the worst in the league in the matter of weeks despite recovering key personnel? The only difference was Rodgers' injury. You think the team reportedly offered Raji 8 million per annum because the front office liked his dancing ability?

September 8, 2013- November 3, 2013 Packer run defense ranks among the best units in the league. Coaches routinely praise Raji's work in the middle of the Defense, Sports Writers note his ability to clog the inside run defense even when playing out of the nickel front. Packers reportedly offer Raji 8 million per annum, details sparse.

November 4- December 28, 2013- Packer run defense begins performing at a historically poor level. Coaches go silent on Raji's play, and sports writers begin criticizing Raji for poor play and a lack of toughness/grit inside. Packer run defense struggles against even mediocre rushing attacks.

December 29, 2013- Packer run defense improves noticeably in the interior at Chicago, still struggles to contain strong side runs. On January 5, 2014, Packer run defense holds Frank Gore to 3.3 ypc.

As for Chicago anyone want to rip my assessment get off your butt and look at the drive chart. Matt Forte was generally ineffective when running at the left side of the defense and into the middle were. Most of his yards came from counter runs off the right guard and right tackle. As I recall his two longest runs of the night in particular occurred when the SS failed to provide strong side contain.

Any links for the gushing praise for Raji during the September-November timeframe to put it in context a little bit?

 

[rodell330]

If a shutdown corner develops in Green Bay, we get our own Justin Smith on the defensive line, and at least find 1 ilb who can tackle sideline to sideline and defend the pass this defense would look a lot different. I think the have at least two of those in free agency.

 

[JBlood]

2011 NFL Draft:


I guarantee you Dom Capers is pretty tired of his boss giving him so many raw rookies, expecting him to develop them into NFL studs overnight, while other teams like the Hawks and Niners (Justin Smith, Ahmad Brooks, Donte Whitner, Carlos Rogers, Glen Dorsey) add talented FA's in addition to drafting the right guys (Bowman, Willis, Aldon Smith).

Agreed. **** LeBeau has rarely started rookies in his defenses over the years. He feels only veterans can understand, and carry out, assignments in his defenses. I suspect this is a lot of the problem with Capers' defense as well. Too many young players playing starting roles, sometimes due to injury--which is unavoidable in a 16 week season. It used to be that rookies rarely, if ever, started on defense in the NFL--especially defensive backs, who would sit and watch for a few years before playing. Maybe it will lead to some activity in the FA market this off season. The problem with the draft is picking the next HOFer instead of the next washout.

 

[TJV]

Looking forward to January 2017 when frank with perfect hindsight will let us know who the Packers should have taken in the upcoming draft. Frank whines about Packers injuries to fans of other teams and posts how good the Packers would be if healthy and then contradicts himself with posts like this. I wonder if he had this same post ready with the 9ers as the subject depending upon who won yesterday's game?

 

[NOMOFO]

Any links for the gushing praise for Raji during the September-November timeframe to put it in context a little bit?

EasyE attempts very hard to make obscure points and then accuses others of doing just that. Johnny Jolly going down killed the Packers run-D more than anything and you don't even mention that Easy E? After that, we should look to two minus temp ice rink December football games to "prove" a point about an "improved" running game? Really?

My how we forget!

On Oct 22nd Tom Silverstine called the Packers run defense "elite". "Green Bay's elite run-stopping unit will be severely challenged over the next few weeks."
http://www.jsonline.com/sports/pack...ackers-run-defense-b99124434z1-228867051.html


"We're meaner," defensive end Mike Daniels said. "Guys are definitely playing with more of an edge. And Johnny Jolly is a big part of that.

"He has a natural nastiness to him, and that's what he had when he played here. You can definitely see we're playing a lot harder, a lot tougher. We're meaner. We're definitely nastier this year."

"His name would be at the top of the list," linebacker A.J. Hawk said of Jolly. "They're all playing amazing up there, but Jolly, I think has brought a different, new energy to the team. He had that when he was here before."

Soooo....there you have your little quotes from players and people following the team... not that the eye test shouldn't have been clear enough for you.... seeing the results when Jolly was and was not on the field.

 

[FrankRizzo]

Agreed. **** LeBeau has rarely started rookies in his defenses over the years. He feels only veterans can understand, and carry out, assignments in his defenses. I suspect this is a lot of the problem with Capers' defense as well. Too many young players playing starting roles, sometimes due to injury--which is unavoidable in a 16 week season. It used to be that rookies rarely, if ever, started on defense in the NFL--especially defensive backs, who would sit and watch for a few years before playing.

Capers is **** LeBeau.
That goes for the scheme at all levels.
It means BJ Raji is Casey Hayward, who did a lot more than Raji.
But it also means Capers needs smart, veterans back there, especially at safety.

Capers should have told Thompson this off-season "Look, you let me go shopping with 2 coupons, and let me hand-pick me a safety who I can trust to learn my system, and maybe another guy at ILB or OLB, and I'll stick around."

To me, the Thompson-Capers duo seems like a 100% mismatch.

Ted loves to find young diamonds in the rough. He loves to rely on rookies, moreso than any other GM in football!
And Capers' system takes experience.
That seems like opposites-attract. That is not a good match.

 

[JBlood]

Capers is **** LeBeau.
That goes for the scheme at all levels.
It means BJ Raji is Casey Hayward, who did a lot more than Raji.
But it also means Capers needs smart, veterans back there, especially at safety.

Capers should have told Thompson this off-season "Look, you let me go shopping with 2 coupons, and let me hand-pick me a safety who I can trust to learn my system, and maybe another guy at ILB or OLB, and I'll stick around."

To me, the Thompson-Capers duo seems like a 100% mismatch.

Ted loves to find young diamonds in the rough. He loves to rely on rookies, moreso than any other GM in football!
And Capers' system takes experience.
That seems like opposites-attract. That is not a good match.

The only good thing is: the rookies will have experience next year, and if we stay healthy--a huge if--we should be better. But I believe there will be some significant FA signings this off season for the defense. If not, we will have to lead the league in scoring if we're to be competitive with SF and the classless Seahawks.

 

[FrankRizzo]

The only good thing is: the rookies will have experience next year, and if we stay healthy--a huge if--we should be better. But I believe there will be some significant FA signings this off season for the defense. If not, we will have to lead the league in scoring if we're to be competitive with SF and the classless Seahawks.

If ever, EVER, you were to be correct about a prediction for our roster, PLEASE be this time.

Pollard, TJ Ward, Whitner...... Griffen.....

 

[easyk83]

17 tackles isn't an elite run defender. I don't care if his only job is to "occupy" blockers. Name ONE other elite run defender that averages one tackle a game. There isn't one. As for his expectations, he was supposed to be a dominant, game changing NT. You don't draft elite run defenders with minimal pass rush skilss at #9.

Writers that have mentioned Raji's underwhelming performance: Football Outsiders, Pro Football Focus, Silverstein has written comments from other team's executives saying that Raji is a solid player, not great. I'd be curious what writers you've been reading that have said that Raji is a great dlineman.

Jersey Al and Bob McGinn praised Raji's work in the first 8 games. I also watched Raji insistently during the first 8 weeks of the season and found his ability to stack up the LOS against run sets, despite playing out of a 2 man front, to be impressive.

FO and PFF metrics are garbage half the time, this isn't baseball.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Jersey Al and Bob McGinn praised Raji's work in the first 8 games. I also watched Raji insistently during the first 8 weeks of the season and found his ability to stack up the LOS against run sets, despite playing out of a 2 man front, to be impressive.

FO and PFF metrics are garbage half the time, this isn't baseball.

I'm not asking for stats. I'm asking for one example of an elite run stopper that averages one tackle a game and no sacks. I somehow doubt that Capers' defense is singular in the history of the NFL in how a large player on the defensive line is used.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I noted at the time that Raji had a good first half against the Bears. Just as you don't crap on talent based one bad half, you don't elevate the unremarkable based on one good half.