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do YOU have faith in this JIM BATES defense?

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by tromadz, Sep 6, 2005.

  1. tromadz
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    tromadz Cheesehead

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    A lot of people are worried about this young and inexperienced defense. I understand, even I am a lil worried (better word:curious) about how they are going to play.

    But are we forgetting something? Are we forgetting about Jim Bates? Real quick, ill post some things from packers.com:



    -In his five seasons as defensive coordinator for the Miami Dolphins (2000-04), his units cumulatively ranked fifth in the NFL, never in one season ranking lower than 10th.

    - His 2004 unit ranked second in the NFL against the pass.

    - Against the run, his squad did not allow a 100-yard rusher over a 20-game stretch that included the last four games of 2002 and the entire '03 campaign.



    Now I know what some of you are thinking. "Well our players aren't as good as those Miami players." To a certain extent, that is true. But do not tell me Cullen Jenkins,KGB,Barnett,Diggs,Al Harris,Mike Hawkins, and Nick Collins are not good, or at least have high potential in a short amount of time (note: look what collins has done so far as a rookie. First rookie safety for Gb since like 88 or something).

    The point is, Jim Bates has done great things with great talents. Keep in mind, Jim Bates was the interim head coach for miami last year and BEAT the WORLD CHAMPION New England Patriots!

    Last year's Slowik defense was a safety oriented defense, and was centered around Darren"Almost" Sharper*. It failed horribly. This defense is about pressure from the defensive line,speedy linebackers, and pressing recievers at the line of scrimmage.

    Now I will do this section by section for the lazy(i am lazy myself, i feel ya, brother).

    Defensive Line: KGB was top 5 in sacks last year. He isn't the best rush defender, but that's not why he is out there. Cullen Jenkins had 2.5 more sacks than Hunt did last year. He also had more tackles for loss of yards than Hunt. By the way, Hunt played more snaps than Jenkins, so none of that should be possible. Cullen Jenkins is that effective, and yeah Hunt sucked it up as well. It still should not have been possible. Grady Jackson. The fat run stopper. I find it disgusting that one fat man can be so effective against the run game, but when you look at our record without him last year, and our preseason performances this year, there is no denying he stops the run. Aaron Kampman had more tackles than Hunt or Jenkins at 54. He had 4.5 sacks. He is a speedy outside guy, and doesn't fall for the dreaded RB cutback some people do. He is solid, and could be very good under Bates.

    Bottom line, that defensive line is not as bad as people want to cry about. As for it getting pressure by itself, that might not happen, but nobody said Jim Bates isn't going to blitz. We have seen almost no blitz at all this year. You think we're not going to blitz at all? that would be foolish to think that. It's only just begun..

    Speedy Linebackers: Nick Barnett, was drafted for his speed. We all know this, let's move on. Paris Lenon has supposedly improved tenfold. This is good, because he sucked ***. He worked out and changed his weight in the offseason, and if the last preseason game is any indicator, he is a ballhawk, and plays hard. we need that. He breaks up passes well, and doesn't lose his assignment. can't as for much more. Robert Thomas, the recently acquired LB from the rams, should be good. He had over 100 tackles in 2003. That is very damn good, people. HELLO, MCFLY! He had injury problems last year, and the rams decided to part ways (they had someone better anyway...we however..do NOT). This could work out for us better than I initially thought. keep your eyes on this guy. OH! And by the way..Nail Diggs is coming back in 2 weeks. We know he is solid as stone. :)

    Pressing recievers at LOS: Al Harris is one of the best in the game at jamming recievers. A lot of you know this. How many times have we seen him just smash someone at the line? LOL, sometimes he even punches them in the face..thats always funny, although sometimes he does get penalized. I always forgive him though. Now our young guys CarrollThomasHawkins ...how good are they at jamming? Does anybody know? We havent really seen. So how can we judge this area. If anyone has an edge, it would be Hawkins because he is so fresh, he can be molded. This is by far the weakest part of the 3, no doubt.

    I'll wrap this up now. Jim Bates knows defense!!!!!!! You dont have those stats i said earlier, or beat the world champions by luck. He is also a master motivator, and a lot of these spoiled punks need a good kick in the ***. And with the young,raw talent that can be molded..we are in good position for years to come.

    *Darren "Almost" Sharper. Nicknamed 'Almost' due to ALMOST making plays multiple times.

    What do you think about the Jim Bates defense?
  2. ORRELSE
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    ORRELSE Cheesehead

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    And what's sad is sometimes he was most of our pass rush as well.
  3. tromadz
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    tromadz Cheesehead

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    yeah, hes just so fat...the o line collapses. LOL

    also, Kampman and Jenkins got good pushes themselves. they wont be sack machines, but i think they can make a QB quite uncomfortable sometimes, and sometimes thats enough. Ask Joey harrington.
  4. CalifPacker
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    CalifPacker Cheesehead

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    The guy has a track record of success. It will take time for Bates to get all of the pieces (players that fit) in place in his mind to perform at an acceptable level that makes his defence a top 5-10 in the league.

    There will be IMO, an improvement this season in our defense I just do not know how much. Time will tell. Lets see how much the D improves over the first 6 to 8 games as a measuring stick.
  5. CaliforniaCheez
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    CaliforniaCheez Cheesehead

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    More faith than Slowitt and his all blitz all the time.

    We have had a DB and LB makeover. The DB's are certainly better with 2 new starters and much better depth. Jury is out on LB until Diggs and Thomas are ready. Until then likely worse.

    DL did not get the makeover but Jenkins instead of Hunt makes it better. The depth is more experienced.

    On the whole it is better. It would be difficult to stay the same or get any worse.

    I don't have the faith suggested. The key is turnovers which did not happen last year. We can survive with one each game.

    ONE TURNOVER A GAME BY THE DEFENSE IS ALL I ASK.
  6. tromadz
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    tromadz Cheesehead

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    they averaged more than that (turnovers) last year, and the defense sucked. stopping people from scoring is the key.

    making them punt at the 50 yard line, and an interception in the endzone is the same thing defensively. it stops them from scoring.
  7. Bobby Roberts
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    BTW, Williams will most likely start in place of Hunt. At the beginning of TC, Williams was the starter there but he got injured. I think a major reason Hunt got cut was how well Williams played in the last preseason game.

    This defense will continue to improve as the year plays out, but there will be many struggles. I think we're looking at moving up to being in the middle of the pack on defense (around #15). It's much better than being one of the worst defenses, but it will take time for these players to gel together and the rookies/inexperienced players in the secondary to become consistent.
  8. TOPackerFan
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    I have faith. We didn't game plan for the preseason games and Bates said on numerous occasions that he was only going to play his base D and was not going to show anything. He was evaluating guys, not necessarily scheming to stop the other team. With time to prepare and by adding a few wrinkles I think the D will be much better than it looked in preseason (and it already looked better than last year, not that that's saying too much).
  9. IPBprez
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    I'll go out on a limb here and say the Pack ends up around 9th in the League on Defense by Season's end.
    The other I know of, right off the bat, would be Mike Sherman... I'm sure there are others, but Sherman always comes to mind right off... In fact, after Belicheck (bought?) got past the Raiders (in the snow, right after 9/11, remember...) and went on to win, by a fluke if you ask me... Then I think Sherman was the first HC to beat Belicheck... wasn't he?

    BTW - the Raiders won that Playoff game, not the Pats....
  10. NCPackerfan
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    As a few of you have mentioned, it will take several games for this defense to come together. Fortunately the schedule makers gave us a break in that there are no offensive juggernauts in the first 5 games. The Saints game (game 5) should provide a good gauge of the progress they are making. They have a game breaking back in McAllistar and Brooks can light it up on occasion. I would be happy just to see them improving from week to week. Who knows if the Packers will make the playoffs this season, but if we do it's important that we be peaking going into the postseason so we don't see a repeat of the disaster against the queens.
  11. HatestheEagles084
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    some key comments that i agree with right here ^, nice post to mirror my thoughts cal...

    do i trust this defense? not yet...but i like our defense better just by the coordinator

    this defense will be more fundamentally sound, less blown coverages, maybe even a few extra sacks and picks

    hunt and carroll not starting, i think we have a hungry young defense, i don't think that will rocket us to the top but you'll notice the effort that wasn't there in 2004.
  12. tromadz
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    tromadz Cheesehead

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    i like our LBs. Lenon showed a lot
  13. calicheesehead
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    Caustiously optimistic! I need to see the starters all play together for a game. All we've seen is the mix-n-match. I think the locker room chemistry has improved, the messages received( work hard or get canned ), and the speed has improved. I do think Bates has a better plan that the players can get behind and buy in to. Now it's time to put it all together. I wish they had one more preseason game to do some ironing with all the starters on one page. Work in progress is so true with this D. I hope they gel quickly.
  14. tromadz
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    tromadz Cheesehead

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    one more preseason game would be nice....but as a fan, i need football..im jonesing bad
  15. PackerTraxx
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    I would have a lot more faith if we had another dominant LB and DT. :wink:

    Actually, I still believe we will have a better defense than we had last year. I like Bates. I'm also glad we don't have any juggernauts early in the year, it will give the defense some time to gel.
  16. kuston
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    Notice that the Lions are studing Miami's D from last year instead of this year's preseason? I don't think we've seen anything yet. I like the #9 prediction also.
  17. E Unit
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    We'll be fine
  18. HatestheEagles084
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    if we had ANY DT period...Grady Jackson...will he be 100% healthy, 100% in the game, go a few games without getting hurt? i wont say a solid yes to any of those questions...I like Corey Williams' potential to be that other run-stuffing element, i'd rather he start than Cullen, I'd like to see Cullen worked in as the relief for KGB that we NEED if we want to stop the run

    Pro: No Cleditus, so what...that's one of my keys for the defense this season, these guys are gonna be hungry...sharper and hunt didn't bring as much to the table as a lot of analysts are saying, we're gonna have two young guys in their spots who have never started, possibly a rookie free agent starting in manning, another first-time full-time starter in joey thomas, if these guys can set goals, meet them...this defense is gonna be alright...but there again...IF
  19. PWT36
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    Don't forget the Packers have Carolina Panthers in Carolina on MNF on Oct 3rd(4th week) and SI in all their wisdom picked them to be in the Super Bowl this season. Hunt and Sharper are gone and Packers have a new defensive Co-ordinator Jim Bates that already should show an improvement in our defense. Remember this Packer team will be a work in progress and should be better at half way mark of the season and much better late on in the second half of the season. Is it going to be enough improvement to win the NFC North and advance in the Playoffs? That is why they play the games. As long as the Packers have Favre, anything is possible
  20. Obi1
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    Actually, how would you all answer this question?

    "Is this defense BETTER than last years?"

    Pack finished at 10-6 & in the playoffs.
    Are we 1 game better as a result of the new DC and the new defense? Could we MAY BE be 2 games better? that makes us 12-4 this year.

    How far will that get us?
  21. tromadz
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    tromadz Cheesehead

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    yes we are better than last year. Addition of bates, and then addition by subtraction with Sharper and Hunt hitting the road. Carroll, in all his crappiness is a year more experienced. Al harris is back, we have a young hard hitting safety in nick collins. KGB was top 5 in sacks last year, and jenkins and kampman should do fine on the line.

    I think we are much better defensively, but the real question is..."how could we be worse?"
  22. PackerTraxx
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    I believe we are better than last year, but our divesion is also better than last year. It will be more important this year not to stumble against teams we should beat, like Sunday.
  23. ArizonaPackerFan
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    I can't remember if it was Christl or McGinn who said it, but I think one of them was commenting on how he noticed the Packer defense wasn't giving up the huge play very often in the preseason compared to when Slowik was here. He said more guys seemed to be in the proper position to be able to make the tackle.

    So my guess would be that we don't have the talent to be a defense that makes a lot of game changing type plays or is dominant, but that we'll be a better and more sound defense because we won't be out of position or blowing assignments as much as we did under Slowik.

    Bates should be able to make adjustments during a game better than Slowik too. Slowik would wait until Peyton Manning threw 4 TDs before deciding an adjustment might need to be made.

    At least that's what I'm hoping for with Bates and questionable talent in some areas.
  24. tromadz
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    tromadz Cheesehead

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    I agree, arizona. We dont have a lot of pro bowl studs, but we have a solid system with fundamentals beaten into their heads.

    (I was so happy when I heard bates had the team doing tackling drills early in camp. Slowik...apparently...forgot to do that. Whoops)
  25. ORRELSE
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    I wish it was that easy. :)

    It boils down to turnovers and 3rd downs I think. We have so many young players that mistakes are inevitable. But it seemed like you had to pull teeth for our defense to get a key TO when you needed it.
    We have to be able to stop 3rd and longs. We didn't do that last year.
    I can live with a few mistakes. I understand we'll certainly have some with all the young kids playing. Missed tackles, NO excuse for that stuff.

    I think our D will be better but we won't see the "true" Bates defense until mid season. Hopefully the O can carry us that far.

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