Do We REALLY NEED a CB THAT BBADLY?

[HyponGrey]

I hear the general consensus is yes. I understand that Woodson is getting old and may not be able to fill the capacity as a corner much longer. I even understand that Williams and Shields underperformed this year in some opinions, my own included. House is unproven, and Bush needs to stay off the field until kicks. Is this really the year to take a high corner though? Do we really need one that bad? Should we get a low rounder developmental project and a spend a high pick next year instead?

 

[FrankRizzo]

I am expecting Davon House to be as good as Sam Shields is, or somewhere in that range.
He had a full redshirt year last year (although if he was taking notes, he was learning bad stuff!).

We got better by releasing Pat Lee already.

I'd be fine with a CB anwhere from the 3rd round on. Hopefully he takes a few in the 4th or 5th rounds with all the comp picks.

Tramon- undrafted.
Shields- undrafted.
Woodson- free agent.

Teddy has not done a good job drafting this position.

 

[TJV]

HyponGrey, your post looks to me like an argument for selecting a CB in the first few rounds of the draft. After last season even the Packers best cover CB, Williams, has a question mark next to his name. I would advise Thompson to avoid "high corners" though although you could probably get one after the draft! I hope Thompson selects whoever they grade as the best defender with pick #28, whether that be a DL, LB, S or CB. And I don't think Thompson thinks in terms of not taking a CB early in this draft and doing so early in the next draft. Drafts are too fluid for that IMO.

Anyway, IMO yes, the Packers play nickel more than any other scheme and that requires CBs who can cover. There currently isn't one on the roster without a question regarding his play going into this season.

 

[AmishMafia]

Is this really the year to take a high corner though? Do we really need one that bad? Should we get a low rounder developmental project and a spend a high pick next year instead?

We should draft a CB high if that is BPA.

We should draft a CB late if that is BPA.

We should never decide to draft position "x" based on need. Take what the draft gives you. This season, the pickings are really poor at CB, imho. Outside of the top 3, I don't think any are worth too much. Last season, we got House in the 4th. To me, he is just a notch below the top 4 in this draft, meaning, if he came out this year,I think he would go late in the 2nd. But he came out in a year when there were lots of CBs and we get him in the 4th, the 24th DB taken. Thats value.

 

[HyponGrey]

HyponGrey, your post looks to me like an argument for selecting a CB in the first few rounds of the draft. After last season even the Packers best cover CB, Williams, has a question mark next to his name. I would advise Thompson to avoid "high corners" though although you could probably get one after the draft! I hope Thompson selects whoever they grade as the best defender with pick #28, whether that be a DL, LB, S or CB. And I don't think Thompson thinks in terms of not taking a CB early in this draft and doing so early in the next draft. Drafts are too fluid for that IMO.

Anyway, IMO yes, the Packers play nickel more than any other scheme and that requires CBs who can cover. There currently isn't one on the roster without a question regarding his play going into this season.

Actually its a plug for possibly grabbing one next year, and an argument that we don't need to draft one at all, as I have seen many draftniks say we do.

We should draft a CB high if that is BPA.

We should draft a CB late if that is BPA.

We should never decide to draft position "x" based on need. Take what the draft gives you. This season, the pickings are really poor at CB, imho. Outside of the top 3, I don't think any are worth too much. Last season, we got House in the 4th. To me, he is just a notch below the top 4 in this draft, meaning, if he came out this year,I think he would go late in the 2nd. But he came out in a year when there were lots of CBs and we get him in the 4th, the 24th DB taken. Thats value.

I agree, Need is a terrible evaluator, but should need and value meet, mores the better, right?

 

[TJV]

Actually its a plug for possibly grabbing one next year, and an argument that we don't need to draft one at all,..

IMO this is an “interesting” argument against drafting a CB:

I understand that Woodson is getting old and may not be able to fill the capacity as a corner much longer… that Williams and Shields underperformed this year in some opinions, my own included. House is unproven, and Bush needs to stay off the field until kicks.

Who’s left?

 

[60six]

The CBs were hung out to dry last year with no pass rush. With no rush the D had to play zone most of the time, but thats not what they do best.

They are very good at man to man, but you cant play that when your not getting to the QB. TT needs to draft a pass rush so this group can play their game.

Drafting a CB early with this same pass rush is silly. He will look as bad as the rest trying to cover a WR for 6 or 7 seconds. You can get by with a good pass rush and average CBs, but not the opposite.

 

[TJV]

Even with the poor pressure, Williams and Shields played poorly last season. Don't take my word for it, that's what Capers said regarding Williams getting beat on the same route repeatedly and Capers replaced Shields with Bush on first and second downs in the playoff game. We haven't talked much about it but it isn't certain the nerve in Williams' shoulder (which he hurt early in the season) will be 100%. With the uncertainty of House and Woodson's advancing age, the Packers need another quality CB IMO.

If the best player available at #28 is CB, I expect Thompson will take him. That's because he probably believes he'll be able to help the pass rush in rounds 2-7. I don't expect that to happen, but IMO what would be silly is passing up a defender the Packers have rated as clearly the best one available at #28.

 

[Lunchboxer]

I say Maybe. I think Williams and Shields has talent. The problem was the D-Line not getting any pressue on the QB at all. Also playing 5 yards off the LoS is going to cause problems.

 

[ExpatPacker]

If the BPA is a cornerback or a safety I expect TT to draft them. If Collins does not come back, both are positions of need for us. We can draft a very good OLB or DL in the 2nd round.

 

[HyponGrey]

IMO this is an “interesting” argument against drafting a CB

I'm sick of hearing that we need a CB, and if we really need one we can wait until next year. Personally, I think that even though we had a bad year last year, we still have a solid CB corp. However, since everybody and their mother seems to be saying otherwise I thought I'd ask the fans on this site their opinion. I tried to do it from a standpoint where I would not be screaming "Why in the blue world do you MORONS think we need a CB?!?!? We just got Davon House in the fourth last year." like I've done in the past 4 weeks whenever I read a mock. I was open to the idea that I might be wrong, and I listed all the arguments I'd heard, but the one thing I can say is thank you for your opinion, Jack, even if you know nothing of tact. Believe it or not, I actually have alot of respect for your opinions even if I'm not showing it right now. There, the entire truth comes out. Happy? I'd forgotten about Tramon's shoulder though.

ps. in all of my mocks, one of my earlier being on this site, I didn draft a cb until at least the fifth, more often the seventh.

 

[TJV]

I'm sick of hearing that we need a CB, and if we really need one we can wait until next year. Personally, I think that even though we had a bad year last year, we still have a solid CB corp. However, since everybody and their mother seems to be saying otherwise I thought I'd ask the fans on this site their opinion. I tried to do it from a standpoint where I would not be screaming "Why in the blue world do you MORONS think we need a CB?!?!? We just got Davon House in the fourth last year." like I've done in the past 4 weeks whenever I read a mock. I was open to the idea that I might be wrong, and I listed all the arguments I'd heard, but the one thing I can say is thank you for your opinion, Jack, even if you know nothing of tact. Believe it or not, I actually have alot of respect for your opinions even if I'm not showing it right now. There, the entire truth comes out. Happy? I'd forgotten about Tramon's shoulder though.

ps. in all of my mocks, one of my earlier being on this site, I didn draft a cb until at least the fifth, more often the seventh.

So, you are sooo sick of hearing that the Packers need a CB you decided to start a thread so you could "hear" it more? LOL.

We just got Davon House, huh? What did he do last year that made you believe he was an NFL ready CB? I'm hoping for the best (as with every young Packer) but he should not be relied upon. And where is your argument that the Packers don't need a CB because just 4 drafts ago they used a premium pick - a second rounder, #60 overall - on that position?

If you are so sick of hearing the Packers needing a CB, why did YOU pick one in YOUR mock draft?

Thompson has shown us he doesn't have to use early picks to acquire CBs - neither Williams nor Shields were drafted. And he's shown us he isn't averse to picking a CB early - Pat Lee didn't work out but I'll bet that wouldn't deter him from picking another early if he deemed the player worthy at that spot.

All this meant in fun except I'd be interested in you pointing out where in post #3, #6, or #8 you believe I showed a lack of tact. I plead guilty to that charge in other posts but here I believe I have civilly disagreed with your opinion. IMO the only post on this thread that comes closest to lacking tact is the one to which I am responding. Not that it's a big deal.

 

[Southpaw]

IMO, I think we should be keeping our eye out for a CB with staying power. Even if we didn't you can't have enough depth at CB in this league.

Unfortunately this draft class in terms of talent at CB drops off significantly after the first round.

Maybe next year. Woodson I think has another good year left in him. Shields is still making strides and I think Tramon might have just had an off year.

 

[HyponGrey]

So, you are sooo sick of hearing that the Packers need a CB you decided to start a thread so you could "hear" it more? LOL.

We just got Davon House, huh? What did he do last year that made you believe he was an NFL ready CB? I'm hoping for the best (as with every young Packer) but he should not be relied upon. And where is your argument that the Packers don't need a CB because just 4 drafts ago they used a premium pick - a second rounder, #60 overall - on that position?

If you are so sick of hearing the Packers needing a CB, why did YOU pick one in YOUR mock draft?

Thompson has shown us he doesn't have to use early picks to acquire CBs - neither Williams nor Shields were drafted. And he's shown us he isn't averse to picking a CB early - Pat Lee didn't work out but I'll bet that wouldn't deter him from picking another early if he deemed the player worthy at that spot.

All this meant in fun except I'd be interested in you pointing out where in post #3, #6, or #8 you believe I showed a lack of tact. I plead guilty to that charge in other posts but here I believe I have civilly disagreed with your opinion. IMO the only post on this thread that comes closest to lacking tact is the one to which I am responding. Not that it's a big deal.

In order.

As I said, I was open to the idea that I was wrong. I decided to find out.

How much of House did I see last year might be a more appropriate question, to answer it not much at all. And where exactly is that #2 pick now? last I heard he wasn't a Packer anymore.

But mom, everybody's doing it! Its just that simple. Everybody else picked a CB, often in the first four (three in the first). I don't percieve it as a need, but was willing to give credence to those who did, so I picked one late. I also picked a wr, not exactly one of our needs IMO, but I've heard people doubt our ability to stretch the field.

IMO Ted is more consistent from the fourth on, I place complete faith in his late round choices. I can't even be sure I'd be upset if TT takes a CB in the first at this point. It would depend on his other picks.

in the light of your last post, none of your posts in this thread show a lack of tact. #3 and #8 I had no real problem with. #3 you tried to deduce my opinion, while I was deliberately trying to obscure it in order to (hopefully) receive a more unbiased opinion from responses. simple misunderstanding. #8 you simply stated your opinion, the purpose of this thread. It was #6 that flared my temper, I, to my chagrin, interpreted your tongue-in-cheek remarks as aggression and responded in a most inappropriate manner. I apologize. As I said, I've been upset over this for a while. In certain situations a singular lapse of tact can become a VERY big deal.

 

[60six]

Even with the poor pressure, Williams and Shields played poorly last season. Don't take my word for it, that's what Capers said regarding Williams getting beat on the same route repeatedly and Capers replaced Shields with Bush on first and second downs in the playoff game. We haven't talked much about it but it isn't certain the nerve in Williams' shoulder (which he hurt early in the season) will be 100%. With the uncertainty of House and Woodson's advancing age, the Packers need another quality CB IMO.

If the best player available at #28 is CB, I expect Thompson will take him. That's because he probably believes he'll be able to help the pass rush in rounds 2-7. I don't expect that to happen, but IMO what would be silly is passing up a defender the Packers have rated as clearly the best one available at #28.

I have no problem drafting a CB this year, just not at #28.

 

[TJV]

60six, I don't think there will be a CB at #28 that would represent value at that spot. But I've been surprised so many times by Thompson I just don't know how he and his staff differ from the "experts". For example, if I remember correctly the experts had Nick Collins graded as a 3rd or 4th rounder - perhaps because most saw him as a CB.

HyponGrey, in order:

Fair enough.

That Lee is no longer a Packer was my point. Hard to count on House as a 4th rounder who we saw almost nothing from when a 2nd rounder washed out IMO except for STs where he was getting better as a gunner.

LOL. But I've gotta ask: If every mock drafter was trading up into the third round for a punter, would you??!!

Yep.

No apology necessary. By internet board standards I think this is pretty tame stuff.

 

[60six]

60six, I don't think there will be a CB at #28 that would represent value at that spot. But I've been surprised so many times by Thompson I just don't know how he and his staff differ from the "experts". For example, if I remember correctly the experts had Nick Collins graded as a 3rd or 4th rounder - perhaps because most saw him as a CB.

Was just looking into that on a few draft sites.

There looks to be a handful of DE/OLBs that would grade out better then the CBs left on the board.

 

[Kitten]

Yes, but not in the first couple of rounds. There are other positions that should be considered first.

 

[HyponGrey]

LOL. But I've gotta ask: If every mock drafter was trading up into the third round for a punter, would you??!

Nope, I'd take him in the 7 just like I did with the corner

 

[HyponGrey]

And it seems the answer is "no" but we got one anyway. Anybody got an idea on how to keep 6 CB? (I told you so)

 

[TJV]

And it seems the answer is "no" but we got one anyway. Anybody got an idea on how to keep 6 CB? (I told you so)

You meant "I told you so"? as humor, right? I mean you're the guy that had to restrain himself from "screaming 'Why in the blue world do you MORONS think we need a CB?!?!? We just got Davon House in the fourth last year.'", right?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say Ted Thompson knows more about the talent in the 2012 NFL draft and more about the needs of the Packers than either of us or anyone else posting on this forum. While no one knows what Thompson and those in the Packers' draft room were thinking, their jumping up 28 spots from the third round to the second round to grab Casey Hayward is persuasive evidence Thompson and staff saw the obvious need at CB HyponGrey inadvertently alluded to in the OP. Just like the need they ID'd when they traded up to grab Matthews and just like the need they saw at DL when they traded up to get Worthy. So Ted Thompson answered the question, "Do We REALLY NEED a CB THAT BBADLY?", "Yes".

That's why I'm cautious about predicting what Thompson and his team will do on draft day. I don't know how many, if any, had Hayward rated as a second rounder, just as few (none that I remember) had Nick Collins rated as a second rounder. As for an idea about keeping a certain number of CBs, I suggest adding Woodson (regarding the makeup of the roster via positions) to the group of safeties and re-asking the question.

 

[HyponGrey]

You meant "I told you so"? as humor, right? I mean you're the guy that had to restrain himself from "screaming 'Why in the blue world do you MORONS think we need a CB?!?!? We just got Davon House in the fourth last year.'", right?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say Ted Thompson knows more about the talent in the 2012 NFL draft and more about the needs of the Packers than either of us or anyone else posting on this forum. While no one knows what Thompson and those in the Packers' draft room were thinking, their jumping up 28 spots from the third round to the second round to grab Casey Hayward is persuasive evidence Thompson and staff saw the obvious need at CB HyponGrey inadvertently alluded to in the OP. Just like the need they ID'd when they traded up to grab Matthews and just like the need they saw at DL when they traded up to get Worthy. So Ted Thompson answered the question, "Do We REALLY NEED a CB THAT BBADLY?", "Yes".

That's why I'm cautious about predicting what Thompson and his team will do on draft day. I don't know how many, if any, had Hayward rated as a second rounder, just as few (none that I remember) had Nick Collins rated as a second rounder. As for an idea about keeping a certain number of CBs, I suggest adding Woodson (regarding the makeup of the roster via positions) to the group of safeties and re-asking the question.

Pretty much lol. I'm actually loving the competition, and at the draft CB truly was a bit shaky. Its good to see the cards fell in a favorable manner. You can't put a price on quality depth (or can you? Hmm...)

 

[TJV]

It’s OK to just admit you were wrong. Actually, you presented the situation pretty well in the OP. Woodson is much better deployed inside rather than one of the outside CBs, Williams and Shields underperformed, House is unproven and Bush is best on STs. (You didn’t mention it but a huge factor is whether or not Williams’ shoulder recovers enough for him to return to his 2010 play.) You just drew the wrong conclusion. Thompson emphatically rejected your idea that he should acquire a low round developmental project when he not only spent a high pick but traded up into the second round to do so.

 

[HyponGrey]

You just drew the wrong conclusion

Lol, still not entirely convinced of that

 

[HyponGrey]

Once again I find myself in this exact predicament. I understand Tramon is struggling to make tackles, but he still has ridiculous ball skills. Personally I think Shields, House, and Hayward have done a more than admirable job, one might even say exceptional. Yes, our pass defense isn't getting it done, but is there any chance the reason just might be a pedestrian pass rush? Honestly, you can't cover forever, it's going to break down eventually, especially when you have a lot of young, inexperienced players on the field. I don't see how bringing in another inexperienced guy is going to fix that. Will someone please explain to me why we need a corner?