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Do we hold Character in too high regard?

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by Southpaw, Jan 15, 2013.

  1. Southpaw
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    Southpaw Endorphin Junkie

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    When it comes to drafting players and signing players, it seems that we pay way too much attention the character issues in players and in doing so ignore immense talent because a certain player has a personality flaw or some legal issues.

    Personally, I think this is a contributing factor to the dynamic and identity of our team, more specifically our defense.

    We have a lot softies on our team, a lot of choir boys.

    Now I'm not saying we should actively seek out dirty players or criminals, but we could use a tough, nasty, passionate, questionably crazy player on our team. A guy that brings a physical and mental oomph.

    Is it the image of the franchise that the Brass is worried about or are they not confident that they can handle a potentially explosive personality?
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  2. HyponGrey
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    HyponGrey Caseus Locutus Est

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    High character and Physical/passionate are not mutually exclusive. Common misconception.

    Lets also say this: Finley has an "explosive personality" and people wanted him gone when he was tearing D's apart. How many people hated Al Harris for all the penalties? Could be that the brass understands the fans better than the fans do themselves.
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  3. GreenBlood
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    GreenBlood Banned Banned

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    Well, in response to the title of this thread, Billy Beane would say, "YES."
  4. GreenBlood
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    GreenBlood Banned Banned

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    This is why I'm still fully in favor of giving Johnny Jolly another shot.
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  5. HyponGrey
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    HyponGrey Caseus Locutus Est

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    Jolly should definitely get a shot. The man has done everything he can to show he's a changed man ever since he got out. I just hope the NFL (should they choose to do so) lifts his suspension early during the offseason so he has a legitimate chance to compete and develop.
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  6. bozz_2006
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    bozz_2006 Cheesehead

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    Character and on-field toughness are not conflicting qualities. Any coward can be a thug and a criminal; pushing around people who can't defend themselves. Football is about pushing around guys who CAN defend themselves. And even though two things aren't conflicting qualities.

    Now, if you're talking about someone who goes out of their way to mind his manners on the field; no, I don't want that. And I don't think anyone in our organization is looking for that in a player either.

    The thing is, thugs and criminals are weak-willed and stupid at a disproportionally high rate. Stupid doesn't get you far in the NFL. To be able to defend yourself against another professional football player requires intelligence.

    I don't much care if a player has thug tendencies or not. What I do care about is that they're intelligent and tough; motivated to not get beat, diligent and creative in their efforts to make sure that doesn't happen.
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  7. GreenBlood
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    GreenBlood Banned Banned

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    If Vick gets a second chance after what he did, then Jolly DEFINITELY deserves one.
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  8. ivo610
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    ivo610 Cheesehead

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    Depends, is the guy at a risk for suspension which could dramatically alter the team if he was suspended?

    Look at someone like Jared Allen, future HOFer. Some teams were most likely scared off bc of his drinking issues.

    More so than any other team bc of the size of the town the athletes reflect the organization. Where as NY or FL they might blame the athlete for getting in trouble, if a public issue happens in GB all eyes will be on both the player and the packers.
  9. HyponGrey
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    HyponGrey Caseus Locutus Est

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    Jolly was one of those "unfortunate" cases that definitely deserve a pass.
    Being in Philly I'm a bit closer to the Vick situation. The only thing he actually did wrong was allow that :poop: to happen. He's still responsible, but lets not paint him as the guy with a gun to the dog's head. I can think of a few known criminals that actually did stuff worth the time who play/played in the NFL. Most notably a Rapist or two.
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  10. GreenBlood
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    GreenBlood Banned Banned

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    He also provided the bulk of the financing required to run the dog fighting ring and shared in the resulting profits. He did a LOT more than just allow it to happen.
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  11. HyponGrey
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    HyponGrey Caseus Locutus Est

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    Forgot that he forked the cash to run it.
  12. buggybill2003
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    buggybill2003 Cheesehead

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    I am 100% behind the reinstatement of Johnie Jolly by the NFL, and we SHOULD give him another shot. What can we lose ?
  13. buggybill2003
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    buggybill2003 Cheesehead

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    I read somewhere that at his trial he was accused of actually executing some of the losing dogs, so is involvement was a bit more than financing it.
    Jolly deserves another go.
  14. Oshkoshpackfan
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    Oshkoshpackfan USMC4EVER

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    HELL YES !!!!
  15. burt packerack
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    I am very much like this. Kids look up to these players, I did and I'm sure y'all did as well. Sometimes you shouldn't look up to them because they often come from tough households.

    I think the whole packer organization MIGHT think the same way because Green Bay is the only small community/town team. Now I never been to GB before but maybe there are more eyes on the players and more susceptible to having rumors spread about them and the organization.
  16. PackFanNChiTown
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    PackFanNChiTown Bear Fan's Bane

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    Have any past or future players in mind when you say this? Just curious.
  17. Oshkoshpackfan
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    Sometimes I wish we had a little bit of nasty on the team.......give me back a young chuck cecil, I want WR's afraid to come across the middle. Not saying I don't like the respectable guys we have, but we do need a tad bit of da nasty somewhere on the defense.
  18. JBlood
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    Character and the NFL have little to do with one another. The Commish wants to put Ray Lewis on his staff as an example of leadership.
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  19. bozz_2006
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    From what I understand, via first-hand accounts, the opposite is what actually holds true. Green Bay folks have long been known to cover up and cover for the more unsavory activities that Packer players get themselves tangled up in. The small town lends to a family-type relationship between the town and the team. The town protects the team; they're not gonna throw them under the bus. They'd take the hit before they allowed the Packers to take it. "A little co-dependent", you say? Well..... yeah....
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  20. El Guapo
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    Every level-headed Packer fan wants an attitude on both offense and defense. You can call it nastiness, swagger, etc. Others stated that having this is not mutually exclusive with also having high character, which is a great point. Do we hold character in too high regard? Absolutely not. If the team that I support is going to err to one side or the other, I'd rather have good character and losses than wins and low character. Since it's not either or, I fully support finding those rare gems that have both qualities. Luckily the Packers, despite losing in the playoffs, has been one of the most successful teams in the NFL since the early 1990s. Would I like to win more championships, sure, but not if it means that I don't respect Packer players anymore.
  21. GreenBlood
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    GreenBlood Banned Banned

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    As far as that part goes, simply being accused isn't proof, though it wouldn't surprise me.
  22. GreenBlood
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    Yeah, then when you actually get a player with some swagger (Finley) people suddenly hate that player for it. Go figure.
  23. bozz_2006
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    My feelings on Finley actually reinforce what I said earlier. I don't dislike his swagger. I have no problem with it. I like it. What I don't like about Finley is that I think he's stupid. And I think his stupidity leads him into situations where his emotions dictate the majority of his actions, especially in pressure situations. He gets overwhelmed and loses control to his emotional self. That's a lack of mental toughness. What I don't like about Finley is that when the chips are down his emotions control him. I don't want that in a player. I want a player that is in control of his emotions.

    Honest to God, I think that ability is what sets Aaron Rodgers apart from most of the players in this league. It's something you don't see much of, partly because most people aren't intelligent and sufficiently emotionally aware to see it. And the majority of those who are capable of seeing it and aware of it are too lazy to put in the work of maintaining control of it. Swagger is a good thing, but if you don't have the capacity of controlling it rather than letting it control you, it will bite you in the ***. That's what I see in Finley. Swagger is what comes out when things are going your way.

    The oft-ignored but vitally important companion to swagger is the ability to ride it out when things aren't going your way. The common thread here is confidence, right? Confidence that things are going right because of your involvement. Confidence that when things aren't going right, that is going to change, because of your involvement. Again, you see the difference here between Rodgers' swagger and Finley's swagger. When Rodgers slips, he fixes it. When Finley slips, he falls apart.

    That's not to say that Finley can't get there. It's a skill. And just like other skills, if you practice it, you'll get better at it. I'm still hopeful that he gains the awareness of this dynamic and is willing to put in the work of making sure his swagger always works for him, rather than letting it work against him.
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  24. GreenBlood
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    GreenBlood Banned Banned

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    I've never seen Finley "fall apart" emotionally. If you have a specific example, I'm all ears, but I've seen every game of his career and have never seen that.
  25. Oshkoshpackfan
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    ^ think maybe he may have misspoke on that one. I think he means that things can get into finleys head easily and his poor performance games reflect that. I too have never really seen him break down mentally like say........Jay Cuntler has...lol
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