[DEBATE] Staff

[Zero2Cool]

Re: TT vs MS

The the excuse will be..

"But Aaron Rodgers is a rookie..give him time."

The question is, how much time are you going to allow him?

Carson Palmer and Phillip Rivers are doing well and I think they both sat atleast one year a piece. Hopefully the same success of Carson happens with Aaron Rodgers.

 

[warhawk]

Re: [DEBATE] Thompson Vs ... (Overall impressions of TT/MM/etc.)

Well Pyle, the reality of it is that you among a very few that would consider MS a decent GM by any standards.

Going into the '05 season we had what was left of Wolf's crop and a HANDFUL of other decent players. Very few 2nd, 3rd, or 4th year platyers worth much of anything.

Also going into '05 we had no significant bank draining FA's nor any impact players from previous drafts demanding large salaries yet we had very little money.

By '05 our backups were a joke. Even Wolf said many diddn't belong in the NFL.

There is much more talent on this team now than entering '05(unless maybe you know more than BF about talent).

The reality of it is you cannot judge these two until TT is given the same amount of time as MS was given to see how these players develop and what level they are on.

If you are going to grade them after two seasons on the talent they as GM's have brought in than Collins, Jennings, and Hawk alone is more than can be said for MS in the same amount of time.

You keep talking about inheriting. Well that inheritance greatly dwindled between '03 to '04 to '05 in which we went from one play to the SB to one and out.
What's the answer to the question "in which direction was this team headed from '03 and on?". You will get your answer of MS' job as a GM.

Obviously if that track record was completely opposite of what it was Mr. Sherman would still be around.

 

[pyledriver80]

Re: [DEBATE] Thompson Vs ... (Overall impressions of TT/MM/etc.)

So let me get this correct......you are giving Ted Thompson credit for guys like Hawk, Jennings, and Collins at this time but are asking to give all his other picks time to develop. In time, it is possible that Hawk, Jennings and Collins may be busts as well. Maybe you should wait until they make a Pro Bowl or something before you start patting Teddy on the back. In fact if Collins continues his play of late he will be a big disapointment. Your argument consists of giving Teddy props for his finds while dodging his responsibility for the others by saying "they are young". If you want to say "they are young" then you can't include the 3 you mention because they could flop justaseasily as succeed.


I also would tend to disagree with you immensly about MS's tenure as a GM. From my experiences only people in GB or GB fans think Sherman was a failure. In fact, just the other day my buddy, a Steelers Fan, asked me why GB has headed south so fast. He made the statement that ever since your "new owner" took over it looked like GB went from playoff team to a basement team. This is the feeling I getfrom most people outside this board. I understand you want to lay the blame at MS's doorstep but also understand that all the Spin aside, MS looked like a winning GM to people. In 20 years when you open up the history books MS will rank amongst the best Packers GM's ever record wise. No matter how many outside factors you want to throw in it will remain that way forever. You can discount any record you want but in the end it will go down as what it was.

 

[all about da packers]

Re: [DEBATE] Thompson Vs ... (Overall impressions of TT/MM/etc.)

warhawk to be the devils advocate, I do remember reading that Sherman knew he had a team full of talent, and was on the lookout for that one playmaker that would put his team over the top, and that is why he was so agressive in getting someone he targeted.

 

[Zero2Cool]

Re: [DEBATE] Thompson Vs ... (Overall impressions of TT/MM/e

warhawk to be the devils advocate, I do remember reading that Sherman knew he had a team full of talent, and was on the lookout for that one playmaker that would put his team over the top, and that is why he was so agressive in getting someone he targeted.

Ooh so thats why we traded up for BJ Sander and used a 1st rd on Ahmad Carroll. lol

 

[kmac]

Re: [DEBATE] Thompson Vs ... (Overall impressions of TT/MM/etc.)

Also pyle, since you coach football, how would you relate your experience to TT.

For example you have a really bad incoming class of 'talent" if you will, and your previous incoming talent wasn't that good either, so now you have a collection of not so hot talent. Is there a way you work around that, or accept it for what it is and do as much as you can while knowing you can't go too far in terms of wins?

I'm not Pyle, but I've talked to the coach at my High School many times about this, and generally what he does is just switch the scheme up. Last season, my school had an all-state QB. We spread it out and threw the ball 35-40 times a game. He left along with the rest of the class, and there wasn't a lot of talent waiting behind them. Instead of relying on your playmakers to make plays, you taylor a system to the individual strengths that your weak players have. That's on MM, not TT.

It's too early to judge whether or not TT or MM are doing their jobs well, because they haven't had time to develop a system around mediocre players or get good talent in.

 

[pyledriver80]

Re: [DEBATE] Thompson Vs ... (Overall impressions of TT/MM/etc.)

Also pyle, since you coach football, how would you relate your experience to TT.

For example you have a really bad incoming class of 'talent" if you will, and your previous incoming talent wasn't that good either, so now you have a collection of not so hot talent. Is there a way you work around that, or accept it for what it is and do as much as you can while knowing you can't go too far in terms of wins?

I'm not Pyle, but I've talked to the coach at my High School many times about this, and generally what he does is just switch the scheme up. Last season, my school had an all-state QB. We spread it out and threw the ball 35-40 times a game. He left along with the rest of the class, and there wasn't a lot of talent waiting behind them. Instead of relying on your playmakers to make plays, you taylor a system to the individual strengths that your weak players have. That's on MM, not TT.

It's too early to judge whether or not TT or MM are doing their jobs well, because they haven't had time to develop a system around mediocre players or get good talent in.

I missed this question, sorry about that AADP.

It is similar to what I had happen this year. My line last years was the bright spot and I had beef all along it. This years class has absolutely NOONE with any size. I remember thinking to myself "what am I going to do"

I really had little to work with. I remember walking up to the athletic director right after we had broke conditioning and we were discussing the team. He made the comment "I don't think you guys are going to do to well this year because of you have no size." I greatly respected the guys opinion and he had had tons more experience than myself. That bothered me greatly so I set up an meeting with my assisstant coaches the same night.


We devised a gameplan of quick passes to the flats, slants, bootlegs, rollouts, WR screens,etc. Whatever it is its going to happen fast because our O-line just doesn't give the QB much time. I think we have ran the ball up the middle a total of 11 times in 4 games. We run off tackle quite a bit and sweep on a regular basis.We basically run the ball through the air, as strange as it sounds. As of today, I think our FB is leading the team in recieving or is very close.


It is similar to the Ol' Packers sweep where the HB either had the option to go inside or outside the tackle. It's up to the HB to read what the playside DE and CB do.


It has been pretty effective. We actually scored on our very first play of the year on a 65 yard FB pass. We won 22-0 on opening night, 20-7 the following week but than we ran into a team that was very good. We lost 36-14. It was a shock to me considering we had only gave up 18 points the ENTIRE year before. We came back this week however and played the conference leaders who were undefeated and won 8-6 in a nailbiter. It was a big win for us considering I went in with a backup QB, no kicker, and my best WR hurt.


Right now we are 3-1 and I ran into the same AD the other day and he said "I am thoroughly impressed." That meant alot to me.


Anyways I had to adjust. I don't like comparing me to an NFL coach. Obviously it's a ENTIRELY different level. I think MM has to play to the strength of his team, but I'm just not sure what that might be.

 

[Zero2Cool]

Re: [DEBATE] Thompson Vs ... (Overall impressions of TT/MM/e

I really had little to work with.

Anyways I had to adjust. I don't like comparing me to an NFL coach. Obviously it's a ENTIRELY different level. I think MM has to play to the strength of his team, but I'm just not sure what that might be.

This portion of your comments are why I push more blame on Mike than Ted. If you need me to elaborate I will, but I think you can see where I'm coming from.

 

[pyledriver80]

Re: [DEBATE] Thompson Vs ... (Overall impressions of TT/MM/etc.)

I don't see the relation, sorry. I get what I get. I don't have FA to go out and pursue guys. I can't "Re-Sign" kids nor can I cut kids in favor of my own players.


If my upcoming class were successful the year before I surely wouldn't "cut them" AKA bench them in favor of new ones.

 

[Zero2Cool]

Re: [DEBATE] Thompson Vs ... (Overall impressions of TT/MM/e

I don't see the relation, sorry. I get what I get. I don't have FA to go out and pursue guys. I can't "Re-Sign" kids nor can I cut kids in favor of my own players.


If my upcoming class were successful the year before I surely wouldn't "cut them" AKA bench them in favor of new ones.

I'm saying you have to deal with what you get. You have to work with whats on your plate. You cna't just whine about it you have to chin up an find a way to win with the talent you have. I think every coach has to do that. I don't think any coach has ever had the best 22 starters their league had to offer so they had to find a way to get talent out of someone else.

So many want to fire Ted because Mike isn't winning with the players he gave him after just two off seasons and two drafts. It's Mikes (and his assitants) job to utlitize each players strength and limit their weakensses. Talent wise I think we have a talented team. I think our problem lies more with poor coaching especially in the secondary.

You see guys making excellent plays, they just aren't doing it consistently.

 

[Zombieslayer]

Re: [DEBATE] Thompson Vs ... (Overall impressions of TT/MM/e

I don't see the relation, sorry. I get what I get. I don't have FA to go out and pursue guys. I can't "Re-Sign" kids nor can I cut kids in favor of my own players.


If my upcoming class were successful the year before I surely wouldn't "cut them" AKA bench them in favor of new ones.

I'm saying you have to deal with what you get. You have to work with whats on your plate. You cna't just whine about it you have to chin up an find a way to win with the talent you have. I think every coach has to do that. I don't think any coach has ever had the best 22 starters their league had to offer so they had to find a way to get talent out of someone else.

So many want to fire Ted because Mike isn't winning with the players he gave him after just two off seasons and two drafts. It's Mikes (and his assitants) job to utlitize each players strength and limit their weakensses. Talent wise I think we have a talented team. I think our problem lies more with poor coaching especially in the secondary.

You see guys making excellent plays, they just aren't doing it consistently.

I wouldn't really put the blame on MM here. I'd rest the blame on K Schottenheimer because MM's more an offensive coach. We'll see what happens after the Monday game, but after Detroit, it seems like MM is doing a good job offensively with what he has to work with. If it wasn't for those fumbles, we would have scored even more points.

Our problem isn't our offense. It's our defense, and more specifically, our secondary. The guys all look out of place and the communication is horrible. This looks more like bad coaching.

If I were TT, I'd do everything I could to get Bates back there next year and I'd replace Schottenheimer asap, but I'd keep MM for another year at least. I think he's doing a fine job with the offense so far. he's made adjustments. He knows the line's bad, so he works around it. He knows our running game sucks so he makes up for it with screens. This is the work of a good offensive coach.

 

[porky88]

Re: TT vs MS

The the excuse will be..

"But Aaron Rodgers is a rookie..give him time."

The question is, how much time are you going to allow him?

Carson Palmer and Phillip Rivers are doing well and I think they both sat atleast one year a piece. Hopefully the same success of Carson happens with Aaron Rodgers.

I completely agree that if they can do it, he can do it.

If Favre retires and Rodgers plays awful next year and we fail to even improve on anything or improve drastically (assuming we go 6-10 this year)

then TT should be let go. I think he's tied into Aaron Rodgers and I‘ve made that known. I think if he spends his money wisely this off season and if upgrades our main weakness (running game and safety) we'll have a legit shot at 8-8. If we go 8-8 next year and Rodgers looks promising then I think you hang onto him and hope that the year after is the break out year. If you go down hill then you have to fire him.

I think it's realistic that we can contend next year for a wild card even with Rodgers. Again we have money to do so and I agree with spending money through various amount of seasons instead of spending it all in one year.

Right now though that's next year. It's still 2006 and the season is not lost. I hope we can get to 2-3 at the bye week and go from there. I think it’s very premature to judge this front office and coaching staff. You can be disappointed but asking for a drastic change right now in my opinion is not fair and not the right thing currently to do. I’m a 3 year guy. For QB’s and management.

 

[Packnic]

Re: [DEBATE] Thompson Vs ... (Overall impressions of TT/MM/etc.)

I hate the TT loves Arod thing.

TT drafted Aaron not because he liked him but because he was too good to pass up at the number 24 spot. He never even planned on getting him. its not like he traded up to get him or went out of his way. he landed here and we took him. because it was our best option.

If Rodgers doesnt do what we think he should do after Favre retires. TT will simply get someone who can do the job, most likely through FA. Keep in mind Rex Grossman sucked for four years.... now he looks like a force to be reckoned with. Some times you gotta deal with the knocks to get yourself to that level. Chicago blew for awhile then when lovie smith go there they started a rise. But i think this year is the first year im worried about them as a superbowl contender.

 

[warhawk]

Re: [DEBATE] Thompson Vs ... (Overall impressions of TT/MM/etc.)

warhawk to be the devils advocate, I do remember reading that Sherman knew he had a team full of talent, and was on the lookout for that one playmaker that would put his team over the top, and that is why he was so agressive in getting someone he targeted.

.....and that is why we were where we were after the '04 season. I understand WHY he did what he did. It obviously didn't work, nor did it help us any down the road.

The dynamics of a team personnel wise is ever changing and you HAVE to look at what your doing as it relates to the affects years later.

The point is Mike Sherman is gone. Why? Because the team was going in the right direction but no one could see it and he was unfairly removed as GM? Because the personnel on the team was better than people gave it credit for?

NO! The personnel moves are not just all opinion. Go back from '01 to '04 and see the record for yourself. See who he drafted and how much that group of over 50 has contributed to the team.

Sorry if I am less than impressed when the best example I can be given is a Steeler fan that has done no more than maybe read the cover let alone the book on where the Packers were and how they got where they are. A superficial glance at best.

My Grandmother liked MS because he reminded her of one of her brothers.
That's about equal weight to Pyle's Steeler buddy.

 

[porky88]

Re: [DEBATE] Thompson Vs ... (Overall impressions of TT/MM/e

I hate the TT loves Arod thing.

TT drafted Aaron not because he liked him but because he was too good to pass up at the number 24 spot. He never even planned on getting him. its not like he traded up to get him or went out of his way. he landed here and we took him. because it was our best option.

If Rodgers doesnt do what we think he should do after Favre retires. TT will simply get someone who can do the job, most likely through FA. Keep in mind Rex Grossman sucked for four years.... now he looks like a force to be reckoned with. Some times you gotta deal with the knocks to get yourself to that level. Chicago blew for awhile then when lovie smith go there they started a rise. But i think this year is the first year im worried about them as a superbowl contender.

It's not that TT loves A-Rod. Generally when a QB gets drafted in round 1 by a GM their job can be tied to them. QB is that important to an NFL team and if you don't have a good QB usually you aren't a good team. Unless we build a defense like the Bears have we probably aren't going to get away with having a bad QB under center.

 

[warhawk]

Re: [DEBATE] Thompson Vs ... (Overall impressions of TT/MM/etc.)

I believe this is more of a case by case thing Porky.

No one would have thought A-Rod would still be around with that pick and with BF talking retirement it was a sensible and responsible move.

GM's that pick guys way up in the draft, like 5th or lower, on their own when that pick could be a very questionable move are tied to those guys success. The Titans GM went out on a limb there and if that backfires he could feel the heat.

Much more so than TT picking up A-Rod when he fell in his lap. It certainly wouldn't be the first time a first round QB didn't make the grade. It seems to happen more time than not in fact.

Hopefully AR proves to be a capable QB when his time comes. He certainly has improved over last year as far as the pre season reports go. i think he surprised people with the mobility he showed. Something he really wasn't known for previously.

 

[porky88]

Re: [DEBATE] Thompson Vs ... (Overall impressions of TT/MM/etc.)

I'm not saying it's a bad pick. I would of taken a defensive player but under the circumstances it was a good pick.

I'm saying it's going to be the pick that defines this era and if it's a hit TT might be here for a long time because if A-Rod can emerge I'm assuming this team is very solid. If he is a bust then I think this team is awful for years to come.

Bengals for instance were awful until they finally made it right with Carson Palmer. If Aaron Rodgers is another Akili Smith then GB is going to be in for a lot of long seasons for the rest of this decade. The Lions and Joey Harrington is another example.

 

[all about da packers]

Re: [DEBATE] Thompson Vs ... (Overall impressions of TT/MM/etc.)

Bump...

Please keep all relevant TT/MM/et al. discussion to this tread.

 

[PackerLegend]

Looking Back On MS Drafts.

This Is something i find quite funny how people dont blame partly MS drafting skills for running this team in the ground.

2000 1 14 Bubba Franks - Average at best anymore
2000 2 44 Chad Clifton - good
2000 3 74 Steve Warren - waste
2000 4 98 Na'il Diggs - ok
2000 4 114 Anthony Lucas - waste
2000 4 126 Gary Berry - waste
2000 5 149 Kabeer Gbaja-Biamila - good
2000 5 151 Joey Jamison - waste
2000 7 224 Mark Tauscher -good
2000 7 229 Ron Moore -waste
2000 7 242 Charles Lee - did ok
2000 7 249 Eugene McCaslin -waste
2000 7 252 Rondell Mealey -waste

2001 1 10 Jamal Reynolds - waste
2001 2 41 Robert Ferguson -waste
2001 3 71 Bhawoh Jue -waste
2001 3 72 Torrance Marshall -waste
2001 4 105 Bill Ferrario -waste
2001 6 198 David Martin -waste overall an awful draft

2002 1 20 Javon Walker - good but went baby
2002 3 92 Marques Anderson -halfway ok
2002 4 135 Najeh Davenport -ok
2002 5 156 Aaron Kampman -good
2002 5 164 Craig Nall -pretty goood in limited time
2002 6 200 Mike Houghton -waste

2003 1 29 Nick Barnett -good
2003 3 79 Kenny Peterson -waste
2003 5 147 James Lee -waste
2003 5 166 Hunter Hillenmeyer - was let go to do good on Bears
2003 6 212 Brennan Curtin -waste
2003 7 245 Chris Johnson -waste
2003 7 253 DeAndrew Rubin -waste
2003 7 256 Carl Ford -waste
2003 7 257 Steve Josue -waste

2004 1 25 Ahmad Carroll -waste
2004 3 70 Joey Thomas -waste
2004 3 72 Donnell Washington -waste
2004 3 87 B.J. Sander -waste
2004 6 179 Corey Williams -good for 6th round
2004 7 251 Scott Wells -good for 7th round


Not saying the 2nd day picks are suppose to be good but damn look at all the 1st, 2nd abd 3rd round picks wasted. These were players who were suppose to fill in

 

[pyledriver80]

Re: Looking Back On MS Drafts.

yep MS is why we lost this game, no doubt.

 

[NDPackerFan]

Re: Looking Back On MS Drafts.

yep MS is why we lost this game, no doubt.

I'm definitely not saying that MS is at fault here but tell me pyle, who is to blame?

 

[pyledriver80]

Re: Looking Back On MS Drafts.

How about - Carroll,Collins,Woodson,Poppinga,Hawk,Barnett,Kampman,KGB,Pickett,
Morency,Brett,Miree,Colledge,Moll, Tauscher,Spitz, Wells,Franks,Robinson,Driver,Ferguson,etc?

 

[packedhouse01]

Re: Looking Back On MS Drafts.

the drafts of Mike Sherman are certainly a contributing factor to the problems the Packers are having today. This is well documented and has been talked into the ground. The drafts of Thompson don't appear to be any better. All I can see is that this franchise is in a bigger mess right now than it was prior to Lindy Infante.

 

[PackerLegend]

Re: Looking Back On MS Drafts.

Dude no where did i say MS is why we lost this game Im just saying i find it humorous how people have called MS a good coach and gm. If he would have done a better job drafting on the 1st day picks are team would be better then they are now.

 

[thetombradyhater]

Re: Looking Back On MS Drafts.

I don't like MS as a GM but I think he was a respectable coach, who probably shouldn't have been fired