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Charles Woodson and Wis. Protesters

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by JBlood, Feb 20, 2011.

  1. SpartaChris
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    SpartaChris Cheesehead

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    You kill collective bargaining, you prevent the public union monster from growing in the future. Pretty simple, really.
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  2. Forget Favre
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    Forget Favre Cheesehead

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    This may be true, but there's just too many other things about the gov. that bother me to accept any thing he proposes.
    Killing high speed rail.
    Proposing to destroy all wetlands that are 2-3 acres or less.
    Voter photo ID BEFORE voting. (Hitler and Stalin would be proud.)
    And this is just the beginning of destroying some of what could have been or what has been great about Wisconsin.

    I believe that the bill is not just about balancing the budget. I think he's just saying it is just to get it passed. It's about union busting and letting his billionare contributors build power plants without bids from anyone else.

    In one of Walker's ads he claims that he gave back 300k because he felt like he was overpaid or didn't feel that it was right for him to keep the money. Yeah, whatever.
    Just because he does something doesn't mean everyone else has to.
    Looks like he's turning into a "My way or the highway" type of guy. And that is not the way to run things. He has to be willing to compromise.
    Well, those brave Democans who left the state claim they won't come back until Walker is willing to negotiate. I hope they stay away as long as it takes.

    I hate unions too. But at the end of the day, what this really is all about is worker's rights. And all of those workers deserve whatever rights they can get and they need to get those rights however they can. And if it has to be done through unions, well, that's just the way it goes and so be it.
  3. JBlood
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    JBlood Cheesehead

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    "I hate unions too. But at the end of the day, what this really is all about is worker's rights. And all of those workers deserve whatever rights they can get and they need to get those rights however they can. And if it has to be done through unions, well, that's just the way it goes and so be it."

    Exactly. As I posted earlier, if all companies were cooperatives, or employee owned, there would be no need for unions. Check out Mondragon Corporation if interested: MONDRAGON Corporation - International Business Group
  4. SpartaChris
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    SpartaChris Cheesehead

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    The high speed rail project here in CA is the single biggest waste of tax payer money. The first destination is some town you'd be hard pressed to find on a map!

    Not sure about the wetlands. Would love to hear more, unbiased, information.

    Voter ID BEFORE voting makes sense. It's not a dumb, or Hitler-esque idea at all. With the amount of voter fraud, including identity theft by illegal aliens, why shouldn't voters be required to prove they are who they say they are before voting?

    I'll take your word for it about his friends, but public union busting is NOT a bad thing. Every governor owes it to the taxpayers to follow suit.

    Sounds like he's doing what he was elected to do.

    And those Democrats aren't brave at all. They're cowards who ran when things got hot. They should all be recalled.

    No, it's about public workers ENTITLEMENTS, not rights. Being non-union doesn't mean you lose your rights as a worker.

    There is just no real good reason, or need, for public worker unions to collectively bargain. None. It's irresponsible and is a waste of taxpayer dollars.
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  5. ThxJackVainisi
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    ThxJackVainisi Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    JBlood,

    That's just not true. Twice. First, look at weeds' post above: "The first legislation the Republicans now in power passed was a $137M tax cut for business. Guess what the projected deficit is...yeah... $137M." That is correct as far as I can tell but I am still in favor of the tax cuts for businesses, because attracting and keeping businesses in Wisconsin is the obvious key to reducing the state's unemployment rate. And if it is successful, they will pay for themselves over the long-run. Walker is proposing to refinance some debt to cover the shortfall once the Senate has a quorum.

    Here's where you may be getting confused. The $137M deficit is for this biennial budget ending June 30, 2011. The $3.6B deficit is projected for the next biennium, July 1, 2011 to June 30, 2013. So even if you assume the business tax-cut doesn't bring any new businesses and therefore no new revenue into Wisconsin, twice the $137M deficit for the tax cut (biennium = 2 years) would only comprise approximately 7.6% of the $3.6B projected deficit.

    Second, Walkers plan would allow public unions to collectively bargain but only with regard to salaries, not pension and health insurance premiums. Just like the private prospective employee interviewing with a private business.

    What Walker is proposing is a long-term fix to our budget problems by bringing public and private compensation closer together. I don't agree with everything in the bill - I don't believe no-bid contracts should ever be allowed except in the case of national emergency on the federal level - but employee costs at the state level and even more so on the local level have to be controlled in order to balance budgets going forward.
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  6. Packerstud
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    I tried so hard to stay out of this thread.

    Saying lowering or not raising taxes adds to the deficit is like saying that I'm losing $600 dollars a year by not raising the rent for my tenants 50 bucks a month.

    If I charge $1000 a month for my apartments and they are all empty, then maybe I should lower the rent so families can afford to live in them.

    If a states business taxes are so high that they leave our state maybe we should lower taxes so they can afford to work here.

    Fact: Under the latest figures, Wisconsin ranks 13th among the states for total tax burden. It was 14th the previous year

    LINK:PolitiFact Wisconsin | Scott Walker says Wisconsin is one of the highest taxed states in the nation

    FACT: Walker is not trying to end Collective Bargaining for state workers. Hes trying to limit collective bargaining to wages only. Why would he want to do this?

    The average Milwaukee public-school teacher salary is $56,500, but with benefits the total package is $100,005, according to the manager of financial planning for Milwaukee public schools.

    State Pension. Teachers belong to the Wisconsin state pension plan. That plan requires a 6.8% employer contribution and 6.2% from the employee. However, according to the collective-bargaining agreement in place since 1996, the district pays the employees' share as well, for a total of 13%.

    Teachers' Supplemental Pension. In addition to the state pension, Milwaukee public-school teachers receive an additional pension under a 1982 collective-bargaining agreement. The district contributes an additional 4.2% of teacher salaries to cover this second pension. Teachers contribute nothing.

    Classified Pension. Most other school employees belong to the city's pension system instead of the state plan. The city plan is less expensive but here, too, according to the collective-bargaining agreement, the district pays the employees' 5.5% share.

    LINK:
    Robert M. Costrell: Oh, To Be a Teacher in Wisconsin - WSJ.com

    But what really yanks my chain is the fact that Teachers in Wisconsin must buy their health insurance from the Wisconsin Education Association Insurance Corp. (WEAIC), which is, not coincidentally, an affiliate of the state's largest teachers union. WEAIC got this with a NO BID CONTRACT under the collective bargaining umbrella.

    LINK: Teachers protesting benefit cuts to the WEA dental plan - Milwaukee dental health | Examiner.com

    I could go on and on explaining why the state should not grant collective bargaining privileges to the State Employee unions but I leave with just this;

    The Federal Government does not allow collective bargaining with its federal employees. It was eliminated by Democratic Congress and signed by Democratic President Carter in 1979, Its to expensive.

    LINK: http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d02835.pdf
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  7. SpartaChris
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    SpartaChris Cheesehead

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    @Packerstud- Excellent post. You forgot the cardinal rule though- Never let the facts get in the way of a good argument. :)
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  8. ivo610
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  9. ivo610
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  10. LAG
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    As tax paying citizens, we the people have a voice in our government via our elected officials. The guy representing me in my district has frickin' fled to Illinois. He and the other 13 should be fired for leaving their job.
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  11. JBlood
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    Here are a few more facts for those who value them:

    This is from an AP article in the Chicago Trib on 2/28/10:

    "In a report released in December 2010, the federal Bureau of Labor Statistics found that the average state/local government worker earns $40.10 an hour in salary and benefits. The same report found the average private worker earns $27.68 an hour in salary and benefits.

    But the report was quick to note that this is not a direct comparison. Government workers tend to be better-educated than their private-sector counterparts, and government jobs are more likely to be professional or managerial as opposed to the many more manufacturing and sales jobs in the private work force.

    In fact, studies that compare salaries and benefits for similar jobs between the public and private sectors show that government workers lag."

    "An April 2010 report by the Center for State & Local Government Excellence — a nonpartisan, Washington-based group with Republicans and Democrats on its board of directors — found that in 2008, state workers nationwide earned 11 percent less and local workers earned 12 percent less than private workers with comparable education levels." (Facts overshadowed in debate over Wis. union bill - chicagotribune.com)


    "Walker claims that Wisconsin is "one of the highest taxed states." His campaign rounds the numbers up to put the state closer to the top 10 and it relies on a researcher’s prediction that is informed but speculative. The campaign also cherry-picks a study by a conservative group that finds business taxes are high, but it does not account for other data that show Wisconsin’s business taxes are middle or low." (PolitiFact Wisconsin | Scott Walker says Wisconsin is one of the highest taxed states in the nation)

    " The latest figures from the National Education Association actually put the average salary for a Wisconsin teacher at $51,264.
    "We couldn't find a definitive, independent state average for benefits in Wisconsin, but the data from the state Department of Public Instruction lists "fringe benefits" by district in Wisconsin. None were as high as $39,000. The median was about $25,800.
    " In total compensation, Wisconsin ranks 23rd in the nation."


    "OK, now to the Average Joe or Jane who works in the private sector."

    "According to a national compensation survey conducted by the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the total cost of compensation to private industry employees last year came to about $58,000 ($41,000 for salary; $17,000 for benefits)."

    "In order to be a teacher in Wisconsin, you've got to have a 4-year college degree. And 52 percent of Wisconsin teachers also have a master's degree. That's much, much higher than the average education level for workers in the private sector. People with higher degrees in education typically get paid more.

    We found two studies that factored in such things as education level, years of experience, race, gender, etc. and found that public employees tend to make a little less than people with similar backgrounds in the private sector."(PolitiFact | Fox Business News' Eric Bolling says Wisconsin teachers get compensated nearly double those in private sector)

    ("never let the facts get in the way of a good argument")
  12. JBlood
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    JBlood Cheesehead

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    But this really boils down to punishing the working man for a world financial collapse engineered by the relatively few financiers controlling the world's wealth. This is simply immoral, as the Catholic bishops have now stated:


    By Daniel Burke
    Religion News Service

    WASHINGTON -- The U.S. Catholic bishops on Thursday (Feb. 24) threw their moral weight behind the pro-union protesters in Wisconsin, saying the rights of workers do not abate in difficult economic times.
    "The debates over worker representation and collective bargaining are not simply matters of ideology or power," said Bishop Stephen Blaire of Stockton, Calif., chairman of the U.S. bishops' committee on domestic justice, "but involve principles of justice, participation and how workers can have a voice in the workplace and economy."
    Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker says proposed legislation to limit collective bargaining rights for public-sector employees is necessary to close a $137 million deficit in the state's budget, a political strategy that has since spread to statehouses in Indiana and Ohio. Union supporters have responded with massive protests.
    The bishops' support for unions came in the form of a public letter addressed to Milwaukee Archbishop Jerome Listecki, who had already said on Feb. 17 that "hard times do not nullify the moral obligation each of us has to respect the legitimate rights of workers."
    "Your efforts to share the consistent teaching of the church in the midst of this controversy are an example for all of us on how to apply our moral principles to the `signs of the times,"' Blaire wrote to Listecki.
    Pope Benedict XVI and his predecessor, Pope John Paul II, were both ardent supporters of unions and workers' associations, Blaire said in the letter.
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  13. SpartaChris
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    SpartaChris Cheesehead

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    I'm sorry, but there's just no excuse for that kind of crap. Seriously, how can we expect the democrats to fight the war on terrorism when they can't even handle Fox news?

    I really hope the same liberals making a big deal about Governor Walker saying he was thinking about putting trouble makers in the crowd come down equally hard on the morons who felt the need to physically accost that reporter. To do otherwise would be completely hypocritical.
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  14. ivo610
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  15. ThxJackVainisi
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    ThxJackVainisi Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    $40.10/hour equals about $83,400 per year so Wisconsin state and local employees must be “above average”. The stat of the average Milwaukee teacher’s salary (over $100,000) have already been posted.

    Here’s a website to check the compensation of a Wisconsin teacher. Here is the information on one of the teachers I know (I’m not posting his name):

    - - - - - -
    Year and session: 2009/10
    Highest degree: Bachelor’s degree
    Local experience: 2.3
    Salary: $57,555
    Fringe: $40,632
    Position title: Teacher
    Low grade served: 09
    High grade served: 12
    Bilingual code: No
    Full time equivalency: 100%
    - - - - - -

    If you know a public teachers name and which county they work in, you can find their compensation.

    You know why so many Wisconsin teachers have masters degrees? In the school district I’m most familiar with teachers get compensated for the cost of pursuing their masters degree and once completed, they automatically get a raise. And how often do you suppose that degree improves the teacher’s ability to teach sixth graders? High schoolers?

    Government workers are better educated than the general population but does that translate into greater productivity and/or proficiency?

    From your post JBlood, I’m guessing you are not a Wisconsin resident. Even my liberal friends don’t contend we aren’t highly taxed.

    Finally, isn’t the “Catholic Church” and “moral weight” an oxymoron? I seem to remember a decades old scandal the Church actively enabled. No offense meant to any poster but shouldn’t the Church get its “moral” house in order before attempting to throw its “moral” weight around?

    The bottom line on all this on the federal, state, county and local level is: WE CAN'T AFFORD THIS ANYMORE.
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  16. Packerstud
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    Government workers tend to be better-educated than their private-sector counterparts...........ahhhhh thats why they shouldn't pay for their health care or pensions. I guess my 2 year community college education couldn't comprehend that


    The average Milwaukee public-school teacher salary is $56,500, but with benefits the total package is $100,005, according to the Manager of financial planning for Milwaukee public schools. What do studies about national averages have to do with the teachers in Wisconsin? I'll use the numbers from the Manager of financial planning for MPS.

    LINK:
    Budget & Finance

    I don't know what data your using here. I couldn't locate the study you reference, can you provide a link? But if you use the link below you will see all 50 state tax rates. We are the 13th highest. This is from The Tax Foundation Org, these are US Government statistics. These are the stats I use.

    LINK: The Tax Foundation - State Corporate Income Tax Rates, 2000-2010

    Do you know that the National Education Association is the largest teachers union in the country? What do you expect them to say?

    LINK: NEA - NEA Home

    This is simply false. Again please site your sources when making statements. You can become a teacher in Wisconsin without a obtaining a masters degree or four years of college.

    LINK:Wisconsin's New Teacher Licensure Process | Teacher Licensing | Resource Pages on Issues | Issues & Advocacy | Wisconsin Education Association Council

    Thats the whole problem with this issue. No one is actually looking for the facts. Both sides a slinging talking points like dollar bills at a strip club.

    In closing, The Federal Government does not allow collective bargaining with its federal employees. It was eliminated by a Democratic Congress and signed by a Democratic President, Jimmy Carter in 1979, Its to expensive.
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  17. LombardiChick
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    LombardiChick Win or lose, I love this team.

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    WI Dem Assemblyman Admits He Threatened Republican Colleagues

    Told a Republican woman, "You are f***ing DEAD!" after the vote.

    In the article: According to Memeorandum, mainstream news outlets aren't reporting on Hintz's verbal assault.

    Thought maybe some of you would like to know about it, since the mainstream media would apparently rather not mention it. It's not that there's no 'there' there - Hintz had to apologize today, once it started spreading via other outlets.

    Just FYI. (If the name rings a bell, it's because he was picked up in a prostitution sting last month. Nice guy. :smile:)
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  18. LAG
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    Now they (Democrats) are giving death threats? Talk about civil disobedience...
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  19. JBlood
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    Packerstud--you were the one to post politifact as a reference. Other than the Chicago Tribune article I referenced, all of the information I posted came from politifact. Thank you for referring me to it.

    And thanks for reminding me of the Catholic church's problems. I believe that individuals corrupt religions, as we see every day, in every religion. The bishops have made huge mistakes in hiding bad priests, no argument from me. The bishops' statement regarding the rights of workers merely restate what Pope Leo XIII said in Rerum Novarum in 1893. It was right then, it's right now.
  20. SpartaChris
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    More proof of the pervious claim I made about a liberal media bias.

    So Walkers says some unsightly things while getting punked makes headlines, but this guy threatening one of his colleagues doesn't. Got it.
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  21. ivo610
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  22. LombardiChick
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    LombardiChick Win or lose, I love this team.

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    It's very telling what they find newsworthy, and what they don't. You have to imagine this would have gotten an awful lot of coverage had a Republican said it to a Democrat, let alone a female one. (I wouldn't want to be represented by anyone, on either side of the aisle, who did something like this - and then there's his involvement in the prostitution sting this past month.)

    Most journalists are self-described Democrat voters. I think it's a very unfortunate thing for the public that they allow their personal political preference to impact their reporting so egregiously.
  23. Forget Favre
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    I dunno why anyone would be against any teachers any where any time for any reason.
    Teachers don't make enough and deserve whatever they can get. Anyone who disagrees must be a drop out.

    No doubt cuts can be made elsewhere other than taking it out on the education system. (And we wonder why we are behind other countries when it comes to education.)
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  24. 2411t
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    Woodson shoulda just stayed out of it.
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  25. GreenBayGal
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    GreenBayGal Cheese Goddess

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    Woodson has a right to express his opinion. Freedom of speech - professional football playor or not.
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