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Charles Woodson and Wis. Protesters

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by JBlood, Feb 20, 2011.

  1. Jess
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    Jess Movement!

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    If you guys can't discuss this without arguing with each other then you both should stay out of this thread.

    Or I could close it, but I'd rather not do that.
  2. ivo610
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    ivo610 Cheesehead

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    ahh ignorance is bliss for you. Dont have a clue about me but you think you have me figured out. As far as the age comment Im not the one saying they are willing to rob a gas station to get to a fight with someone they have never met. Thats you.
  3. Forget Favre
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    Forget Favre Cheesehead

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    Pete, Ivo, I am going to ask the two of you to notice what was written above by two mods.

    Please do not ruin this thread for others by having it close down by your back-and-forth arguing.

    Please, just drop it.
    Agree to disagree.
    Shake hands :handshake:
    Make up.
    Discuss other things, like the Packers.
    Put each other on "ignore."
    Do whatever it takes to cool your jets.
    Thank you.
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  4. PackersPete
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    PackersPete Cheesehead

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    I was more than willing to drop with ivo. He didn't take the hint though. Dropping it and backing down are two seperate things. I'll drop it LONG before I back down.
  5. Jess
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    Jess Movement!

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    Pete, check your private messages. There's no need to air any issues in public, so we aren't going to.

    Everyone else, umm, on with the thread, I guess.
  6. longtimefan
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    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Just do it in pms

    The other people here rather not sift thru the arguments
  7. robdog
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    robdog Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    And this is why I dislike any political threads on a sports forum...

    Get this thread right before I close it down and disallow political threads on this forum.
  8. Forget Favre
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    Forget Favre Cheesehead

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  9. Forget Favre
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    Forget Favre Cheesehead

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    This is a really good take on the situation.
    Puts things in perspective.

    Scott Walker's War - Isthmus | The Daily Page

    Walker claims the state's budget crisis is so gaping and horrific he had no choice but to unilaterally extract benefit concessions from some public employees and minimize the collective bargaining rights of nearly all of them, at the state and local level. But Wisconsin's fiscal situation is not as grave as that of other states, nor is its current budget deficit as large as what Walker's predecessor was able to plug two years ago, without drastic measures.

    Moreover, Walker's sense of urgency over reining in employee benefits has not prompted him to be otherwise tightfisted. In just the last several weeks, Walker and the GOP have passed $140 million in new tax breaks for businesses, with more to come. (As a candidate, he promised more than a billion dollars of givebacks to corporations and the state's wealthiest residents.)


    From reading this here's what I think:
    1) Why or how the heck did Wanker think that the majority of State workers would be OK with what he is proposing? He's gotta be the dumbest moron if he really thought that they would be fine with him taking away their bargaining rights and making changes to their pay checks.
    You just don't mess around with stuff like that and not expect consequences or people to not be mad as hell.

    2) It really is not about balancing the state budget at all. It's all about union busting, taking charge and making sure that the Republicrats will be in power for a long time.

    3) It's good that those senators left the state. They did the right thing.

    4) It really is a war on the working class. More power to them.
  10. ThxJackVainisi
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    ThxJackVainisi Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    The prank caller's name is Ian Murphy. Here's a link to his previous "work". Caution to anyone sensitive about language. I would not want to be associated with such a person and certainly wouldn’t celebrate anything he did.

    That said, someone in Walker’s office should be fired for not verifying the caller’s identity.
  11. SpartaChris
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    SpartaChris Cheesehead

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    Eh, so what. If this same thing happened to someone from the other side, the context and content would have been similar.

    Frankly, I think ALL public worker unions should be decertified and disbanded. They have too much power to hold the city hostage and are just unnecessary. Here's the job, here's what it pays, here's the benefits. Don't like it, you're free to work somewhere else. Not sure why you need a union for that.
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  12. SpartaChris
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    SpartaChris Cheesehead

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    First, it's not a "really good take." It's a biased take. I'm sure you could find some op-ed piece supporting his side of things that someone would label as a "really good take."

    Second, tax cuts for businesses do in fact help businesses grow, which helps with job creation. Want to know how I know? Because businesses in CA are constantly seeking greener pastures in other, more tax friendly states like Wisconsin. We lost out on several, billion dollar factories because those companies figured they could be more profitable elsewhere, in another state. Instead of setting up shop here, they went to Louisiana, Texas and North Carolina. Great for them, sucks for us.

    Third- Those senators who left the state are cowards and should be immediately recalled, especially if it's found tax payer dollars were used to pay for their little vacations. I'm sorry, but running and hiding is a cowardly thing to do, and they should ALL be ashamed of themselves.

    Fourth- It's not a war on the working class, it's a salvation for the tax payer. You don't think things are bad now, but again, I'll point you to California. He has the good sense to stop the problem before it becomes one. It's too late for us. I only wish we had a governor with the stones to stand up to the public worker unions here in CA.

    I mean, seriously, why should ANYONE get automatic job security and a Cadillac pension plan just because they work for the state? Shouldn't the jobs go to the people who are willing to work hard, and shouldn't people be expected to pay for their own retirement and health care benefits? Why should state workers be exempt from those things the rest of us have to be responsible for?

    I just don't get how any tax payer can honestly support public worker unions.
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  13. ThxJackVainisi
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    ThxJackVainisi Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    Just so there’s no confusion, Wisconsin faces a $3,600,000,000 deficit over the next biennium. The previous Governor plugged budget holes by raiding the Patients compensation fund – something the WI Supreme Court ruled unconstitutional. He also diverted about $1B of the transportation fund into the general fund. And of course he and the dems pushed through a $1B tax and fee increase with no public hearing which was approved by the Legislature the day after it was introduced.

    Unlike the Federal government, Wisconsin has a constitutional mandate to balance its budget and of course cannot print money or engage in quantitative easing once, let alone twice. When Walker introduces his budget, there will be large cuts in state money going to local governments. He wants to give those local governments the ability to make their employees chip in more for their lavish health insurance and pension benefits. That’s long overdue in my opinion. And keep in mind, “staunch conservatives” like President Franklin Delano Roosevelt were against collective bargaining for government employees.

    BTW, for those thinking the Federal government can bail out the states: The Federal debt is approximately 14 trillion dollars. To put that in perspective, one billion dollars = $1,000 million. One trillion dollars = $1,000 billion, so 1 trillion dollars = one million million. And we are 14 of those in debt. Our gross domestic product - the value of all the goods and services we provide - is about 14.5 trillion. Here's a link that should scare all of us. But this is a WORLD CHAMPION GREEN BAY PACKERS forum and that involves to some degree escaping such realities so I'll step off my soapbox now.
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  14. Forget Favre
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    Forget Favre Cheesehead

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    Well if one wants good pay and benefits then one could go work for the state. They could take your example in the first quote.
    And they are working at paying for their own retirement and health care benefits. Your acting like they shouldn't get those things just because it's subsidized by the state? You think they should work for free?
    And we're not talking about folks who will be making millions at their jobs. We're talking about common hard working people who make a difference in our lives everyday. Snow plow drivers, construction workers, cops, fire fighters, teachers, nurses etc etc.
    Don't you (Or anyone else) thinks they should get some good stuff in return?
    Walker's proposals is something that goes against the common working folks. The middle class. The working class. How can anyone be against that?
    And the unions are willing to compromise, to meet Walker half way.
    They (And the workers) are willing to concede with the pay cuts for the benefits and pensions but Walker is being stubborn and still insists on taking away their bargaining rights.

    You know, if this same thing was happening to the Packers, no doubt those who are on the forum on Walker's side would turn against him and be crying out for the player's rights.
  15. SpartaChris
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    SpartaChris Cheesehead

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    I never said they should work for free, but they shouldn't be entitled to retire at 50 with a taxpayer funded pension and health care coverage just because they happen to work for the state. It's not a sustainable system, and the legacy costs are absolutely killing us.

    Again, I'll refer you to California or even the PIIGS nations, where you government employment is huge. Public worker pensions and benefits have near bankrupted us in CA and did some of the PIIGS nations.


    I think collecting a paycheck, receiving benefits and 401k matching in a defined contribution plan in exchange for their service is more than fair. I don't get why people believe they deserve so much more than that. Newsflash- Most people AREN'T millionaires and AREN'T government workers, yet they still manage to get by. Again, why should government workers expect to be treated like royalty? What's so special about the work they're doing that they deserve to siphon off the public till for the last 30-35 years of their lives?

    I'm middle class. I consider myself to be a "common working folk" and I am strongly against the public worker unions. Why? Because it's my tax dollars that wind up going to pay for some guy to sit on his *** starting at age 50, while I'm still busting my hump at 65. Being a state worker shouldn't entitle you to special treatment.

    As for his taking away their collective bargaining rights, good for him. Even pro-union uber liberal FDR felt state workers shouldn't have collective bargaining rights, citing them as "untolerable" and "Unthinkable."

    HUGE difference between a private workers union and a public workers union. As much as I think ALL unions should be decertified since they're unnecessary, greedy, business killing leeches, private workers have every right to unionize. Private business does not rely on public tax money to operate, so they are free to operate as they please. If they want to have a union, who am I to stop them?

    Public workers, on the other hand should not be allowed to unionize. A public worker's sole job is to serve us, the taxpaying public, not themselves. There is simply no need for them to be unionized.
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  16. SpartaChris
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    SpartaChris Cheesehead

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    By the way, if working for the government was such a great gig, why doesn't the government create and give jobs and benefits to everyone?

    I'll tell you why- Because it's unsustainable.

    Let's say, for example, you work for the government and make $40k/year. Lets assume you pay roughly 20% in taxes, so $8k/year

    At a 20% tax rate, it would take 5 employees making $40k/year just to pay your salary. If all 5 of those people are government workers, your government goes bankrupt.

    Put another way, it takes 4 private workers making $40k/year and paying 20% in taxes to cover just the salary of the public worker making $40k/year. That doesn't include pension or benefits.

    It's simple math, and isn't hard to figure out why the system, in it's current form, can't continue for much longer.
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  17. LombardiChick
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    LombardiChick Win or lose, I love this team.

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    If you think a conversation between a union boss and a Democrat would be more benign than the conversation between Walker and the fake David Koch (btw: The real David Koch and Scott Walker have never met, and they have never spoken to one another), I've soooo got a bridge to sell you. :smile:

    By the way, the perpetrator of that stunt wrote a piece called "F___ the Troops". It's NSFW, but just to demonstrate I'm not making this up, here's a link to it. Oh, and he may have broken identity theft laws, as well. Here's a lawyer's opinion about that.

    He's not the kind of guy I'd want on my team, but to each his own.

    One last thing: The list of top political donors is heavily dominated by unions. In fact, of the top five overall donors in 2010, two were teachers unions, another was SEIU, and ActBlue (a Democrat advocacy group) topped the list. You have to go all the way down to 42nd to find Koch Industries - so if your problem is money and influence in politics, that's good information to have.
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  18. Forget Favre
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    Forget Favre Cheesehead

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    First of all, I appreciate us having a respectful debate/discussion on this without it turning into personal attacks.
    We will probably not come to an agreement, but I hope that we can continue to be civil to each other.
    Hopefully others will learn from this and continue the trend if they weigh in.
    And I always did like your clever play on words with your screen name of SpartaChris.

    I guess I can understand why your angry at state workers. You don't like it that they can retire at the alleged age of 50. (I honestly don't know the average age of a retiring Wisconsin worker. Is it 50?)
    What I don't understand is why the resentment? If your so upset with your job or if you want to retire at 50 then why not apply for those state jobs?

    I also don't understand is why you or anyone else would have no problem seeing workers giving up rights just so a powerful republican governor can get his way?
    Breaking up unions means less money going to democrat opponents and this budget proposal also means bringing in big business.
    It looks like Walker wants to turn this democracy into a dictatorship.
    And that is what really worries me. What I don't want to see. Someone being as powerful as he is making changes that aren't going to be good for Wisconsin and her residents.
    Walker is in bed with the Koch brothers. (Not the guy who pretended to be one who made the phone call.)
    The real Koch brothers who have opened up a lobbying office just down the street from the Capitol building.
    I think the attached video below explains in simple terms what is really going on here. What is really at stake.
    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFtTdi5U0n0&feature=player_embedded]YouTube - Defend the American Dream![/ame]
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  19. ThxJackVainisi
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    ThxJackVainisi Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    Forget Favre,

    I think the resentment occurs not because SpartaChris and others are upset with their jobs but because he - and all the rest of us taxpayers – are paying for the lavish benefits of government employees.

    You mentioned the unions supporting the democrats – that of course is right as they give 100s of millions of dollars to democrats nationwide. That’s why government employees should not have collective bargaining rights: It is a conflict of interest. When a private business and a union negotiate, each side represents different interests. When a politician beholding to the unions for his/her reelection bargains with a government worker union there is no one at the table representing the rights of taxpayers.

    Kimberley Strassel wrote a piece for the Wall Street Journal titled, Union Power for Thee, But Not for Me. The subtitle is, If the president is so upset with Wisconsin's labor law reforms, why won't he allow federal workers to bargain collectively? The point she makes is if Walker’s bill is passed, Wisconsin state employees will still have more rights than federal employees. (You have to subscribe to read the article.)

    With regard to the kind of person Walker is, when he was elected as Milwaukee County Executive, he said he thought the job paid too much. So what did he do about it? He reduced his salary by over $300,000 over eight years.

    The problems with public unions go beyond lavish compensation and benefits. In Milwaukee county because of union rules, county park employees work from 8AM to 4:30PM. If there is an event in one of the parks after 5PM employees must be paid overtime. How many capable workers do you suppose would be willing to work a flex time schedule or start at noon?

    The bottom line to all this IMO is no matter what you think about all the issues before us as a nation and in the individual states, we just can’t afford to spend like we are spending. As I type this, the Federal government is borrowing 40 cents for every dollar it spends. Who disagrees that is unsustainable? And beyond that on the local level, personnel costs typically take up 60% or more of their budgets.

    Two quotes from a Wall Street Journal story by Robert Costrell, titled Oh, To Be a Teacher in Wisconsin: “The showdown in Wisconsin over fringe benefits for public employees boils down to one number: 74.2. That's how many cents the public pays Milwaukee public-school teachers and other employees for retirement and health benefits for every dollar they receive in salary. The corresponding rate for employees of private firms is 24.3 cents.”

    And later in the article: The average Milwaukee public-school teacher salary is $56,500, but with benefits the total package is $100,005, according to the manager of financial planning for Milwaukee public schools.” And keep in mind, if they can’t get by on that salary and benefit package, they have three months off every year to earn more income.

    BTW, I like the sentiment behind your screen name – so we certainly agree on that.
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  20. SpartaChris
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    SpartaChris Cheesehead

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    Very well stated, and sums up my thoughts exactly. You said it much better and with much more eloquence than I could have.
  21. ivo610
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    ivo610 Cheesehead

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    I worry about a governor that would consider planting trouble makers in a peaceful rally.
  22. RayNitschke66
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    RayNitschke66 Cheesehead

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    Thank you, Charles, for having our backs. Unions are all about negotiating the best deal possible just like businesses negotiate the best deal possible. My product is my skilled labor and contracts are negotiated and agreed to by BOTH parties. That's capitalism at work right there. Envious of what your union member neighbor earns? That's just petty thinking. Instead of being jealous maybe you should unionize. Solidarity forever. And, yes, we are taxpayers too.
  23. SpartaChris
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    SpartaChris Cheesehead

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    For starters, while I despise the existence of ALL unions, my sentiments in this thread are aimed mostly at public worker unions, not private ones. Private worker unions, as much as I hate them, aren't funded by the tax payers. Public worker unions are.

    Next, did you even READ ThxJackVainisi's post? It has NOTHING to do with being jealous. There are lots of people in this world who make way more money than I do, and I'm not jealous of them. I figure some of them at least worked for it, so I respect them more for it.

    What I hate, though, is the entitlement mentality unions and their members have, especially when with the public worker unions who rely on our tax dollars to earn their living. It's this idea that they shouldn't be expecting to share in the sacrifices the rest of us have to make. Me me me me, and screw everyone else. It's this idea that it's OK to continue to raise taxes on everyone so you can have a fancy retirement on the tax payers dime, all because you happened to work for the state. Sorry, but eff that.

    Finally, so what if public union members pay taxes. As I already proved in a previous post, they don't pay enough to cover their compensation. It's simple math- You need 4 tax payers making $40,000/year paying 20% in taxes to cover just the salary of 1 government employee. Double that to factor in benefits and pensions. It's a BS system that absolutely needs to be fixed.

    Private business and unions, whatever. I hate them, but I won't rail against them since that's absolute capitalism at it's core. Public worker unions though, they need to go.
  24. Forget Favre
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    Forget Favre Cheesehead

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    So do I and so does the Madison mayor and police chief.

    Walker had better answer to them. Though I have a feeling he won't.

    Madison police chief, mayor ask governor to explain 'troubling' statements

    Excerpt:
    Madison's mayor and police chief Thursday called on Gov. Scott Walker to explain statements he made in a secretly recorded phone conversation that he "thought about" planting troublemakers among the thousands of demonstrators at the Capitol.
    "Someone in his inner circle raised seriously the possibility of hiring people to come in and apparently create violence in my city," Mayor Dave Cieslewicz said. "I find it appalling, and I want to know who that was."

    Not only that but Walker also toyed with the idea of breaking ethics violations by agreeing to accept the offer of the Koch brother going out to Cali to have a good time, at the end of the prank call.
  25. SpartaChris
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    SpartaChris Cheesehead

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    While they're at it, they should also investigate the death threats made against Walker by several protesters...

    Oh wait, investigating their own doesn't really fit their agenda... Never mind.
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