1. Welcome to Green Bay Packers NFL Football Forum & Community!
    Packer Forum is one of the largest online communities for the Green Bay Packers.

    You are currently viewing our community forums as a guest user.

    Sign Up or

    Having an account grants you additional privileges, such as creating and participating in discussions. Furthermore, we hide most of the ads once you register as a member! Furthermore, we hide most of the ads once you register as a member!

Charles Woodson and Wis. Protesters

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by JBlood, Feb 20, 2011.

  1. PackCrazed4
    Offline

    PackCrazed4 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    Messages:
    535
    Location:
    Chicago Native on loan to Tallahassee, FL
    Ratings:
    +167 / 1 / -1
    Packer Fan Since:
    1995
    Yeah, but JBlood, that's the point. We live in a country where you can choose where to work, competition. If the government isn't offering you enough money to work for them, then you find a job elsewhere. Not to mention the fact that even with the reduction in pensions, it will still be better than a 401K plan.

    Of course it's the Feds fault all the states are bankrupt, but unfortunately, the states still have to run themselves and can only control their own situations. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if something doesn't happen with cuts in spending, more government layoffs are imminent. It sucks that they have to do it, but if it were me, I'd rather take a slight pay cut than lose my job all together.
    • Like Like x 2
  2. LAG
    Offline

    LAG Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2010
    Messages:
    513
    Location:
    Wisconsin
    Ratings:
    +163 / 3 / -0
    Packer Fan Since:
    1958
    Let's face it, there is less money to go around then there used to be. Deep cuts have to be made in the public sector, just as there has been the last few years in the private sector. The problem is, no one wants to be at the receiving end of these cuts and they will howl loud and long if they are.

    My property taxes have gone up 75% in the last eight years. My salary and benies have been severely chopped the last several years. Bargain - schmargin. I sure am not one to say go ahead and raise my taxes to continue funding public sector jobs as they currently are and side with the public workers crying fowl right now.
    • Like Like x 3
  3. SpartaChris
    Offline

    SpartaChris Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2007
    Messages:
    3,042
    Ratings:
    +963 / 25 / -9
    Furthermore, how can you justify retiring at 50 with a tax-payer funded pension while your neighbor, who makes less than you do, has to work until he's 75 and has to provide for his own retirement?
    • Like Like x 2
  4. SpartaChris
    Offline

    SpartaChris Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2007
    Messages:
    3,042
    Ratings:
    +963 / 25 / -9
    Due respect to your dad, but it's ridiculous to have that kind of pension system. I get they realized early on that type of system was insolvent, but there is absolutely NO reason why government union workers should receive a pension funded by tax payers. Working for the government doesn't make them special, and they shouldn't be treated as such.

    As for pinning all the blame on wall street, I don't think all the blame should fall there but should be distributed equally among them, the government who coerced Fannie Mae into lowering their lending standards, and the consumers who knowingly bought houses they couldn't afford.

    The Clinton administration wanted to make it easier for people who couldn't meet normal lending standards to buy homes, so they coerced Fannie Mae to lower their lending standards. They also repealed the Glass-Steagall act, thereby allowing investment and traditional banks to merge.

    You also had people making $12/hour buy $1Million homes, using those stated income, no money down, interest only loans. Consumers were being just as greedy as traders on wall street, speculating on the continued dramatic increase of property values.

    There was a perfect, greed driven storm created by the government and perpetrated by investors and consumers looking to make an easy buck. The end result is the crisis we have today.

    Something else to consider, as it pertains to government deficits, is many local and state governments made these pension deals when times were good, never taking into account what could happen if times were bad. It's classic mismanagement, which is why you see so many cities having problems today.
    • Like Like x 2
  5. SpartaChris
    Offline

    SpartaChris Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2007
    Messages:
    3,042
    Ratings:
    +963 / 25 / -9
    Are they paying anything to begin with?

    We had two union strikes here in CA over the last couple years- The food workers and the teachers union. Both were because their respective organizations wanted them to actually start contributing something towards their own health care and retirement, rather than having it fully funded.

    Ridiculous.
    • Like Like x 1
  6. mradtke66
    Offline

    mradtke66 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2011
    Messages:
    403
    Location:
    Madison, WI
    Ratings:
    +144 / 8 / -0
    Well, that's a falasy--state employees do not make more than private employees.

    DISCLAIMER: I am a state employee (UW), NOT union.

    The benefits of state employment are good. The straight pay (salary) isn't. I laughed at the first salary offer that was made to me--I could have gotten much more elsewhere and $12,000 more than the offer I ended up accepting. That is not a made up number, that is the number I received from a competing, private-sector job.

    When state benefits + public salary are compared to private benefits + private salary, ergo 'total compensation,' it's not so out of whack. Depending on what numbers you read, the state ends up as "right about average" to "slightly below average."

    Specifically about teachers, they're the ones that will get hurt the worst. My job easily translates to the private sector and I can leave (relatively easily) if this adjustment hurts me bad enough. A teacher's job does not and they cannot leave so easily. I greatly fear teachers leaving the state for a state that does pay better and fewer college students becoming teachers, leading to a teacher shortage.
  7. LombardiChick
    Offline

    LombardiChick Win or lose, I love this team.

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2011
    Messages:
    1,000
    Location:
    PLANET EARTH
    Ratings:
    +643 / 0 / -0
    This was drawn by a liberal cartoonist (Phil Hands) in the Wisconsin State Journal, as I understand it. It rather sums it up for a lot of the people out here who are buying their own health care and planning for their own retirement. When teachers lose a guy like this, and lose public opinion (polling is starting to come out), maybe they need to think things through a little more - just sayin':

    [​IMG]
    • Like Like x 5
  8. SpartaChris
    Offline

    SpartaChris Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2007
    Messages:
    3,042
    Ratings:
    +963 / 25 / -9
    It's not a fallacy in my state. Here in CA, most state union workers make way more money their their private corporation counter parts.

    In fact, take a look at this: PayScale - Receptionist Wages, Hourly Wage Rate by Employer Type

    Compare the national average Government- State and Local wages for a receptionist to that of a private practice or company receptionist. The wages are in fact higher.
    • Like Like x 2
  9. LombardiChick
    Offline

    LombardiChick Win or lose, I love this team.

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2011
    Messages:
    1,000
    Location:
    PLANET EARTH
    Ratings:
    +643 / 0 / -0
    Aren't you kind of comparing apples to oranges? Your situation, because you are non-union, rings very true to me. I have a friend - not a teacher, not a union member - who works at a state college here who is continually getting screwed because when cuts are made, it is the non-union employees that must sacrifice, while the union members enjoy their raises.

    He keeps the job because jobs are hard to find right now, but he took about a $20K paycut to work there. (Yes, he can leave, and someday I'm sure he will.)

    As for Wisconsin teachers, I looked up a few salaries in public records this past week, including the salary of someone I know personally. Taking into consideration how few days they actually work, they seem to me to be doing just fine. The administrator of the tiny school district I grew up in makes over $100K before his benefits package is factored in.

    It's just hard for a lot of us to feel sorry for these people, given the small sacrifice the governor is asking of them. (See the cartoon above.)
    • Like Like x 3
  10. LombardiChick
    Offline

    LombardiChick Win or lose, I love this team.

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2011
    Messages:
    1,000
    Location:
    PLANET EARTH
    Ratings:
    +643 / 0 / -0
    Wisconsin’s teachers make a little more money than they’re letting on

    I know engineers with long, impressive resumes (Microsoft and more) who work twelve months a year and make less money than Leah Lechleiter-Luke...and I live in an area where the average house still costs half a million dollars.

    • Like Like x 2
  11. mradtke66
    Offline

    mradtke66 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2011
    Messages:
    403
    Location:
    Madison, WI
    Ratings:
    +144 / 8 / -0
    Just some quick notes before I finish my lunch and stop reading here....

    1) Union vs. Non-union pay scales: they generally are on par here. Feel free to visit Employment Opportunities at UW-Madison to look at the jobs postings.

    2) When I say "teachers," I mean teachers, not administrators. What does a fresh college grad teacher make? How does that compare to their education level? The total hours spend working each day? Yes, they get summers "off," but being a teacher has some of the most-stringent professional-growth requirements, ie, more education, that is typically done over the summer.

    2a) The teachers that make, by your opinion, a more-than-fair wage, how many of them have an advanced (masters) degree?
  12. SpartaChris
    Offline

    SpartaChris Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2007
    Messages:
    3,042
    Ratings:
    +963 / 25 / -9
    Excellent post. Most every time the unions here in California try and paint some kind of dire picture, it's discovered they're really just entitled, self absorbed jerks who really don't care if everyone else has to make sacrifices, so long as you don't ask the to.
    • Like Like x 2
  13. packers4life
    Offline

    packers4life Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2011
    Messages:
    6
    Ratings:
    +2 / 0 / -0
    super bowl 45 woulda been even easier for the packers if charles woodson didnt get hurt :)
  14. LombardiChick
    Offline

    LombardiChick Win or lose, I love this team.

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2011
    Messages:
    1,000
    Location:
    PLANET EARTH
    Ratings:
    +643 / 0 / -0
    Posting from my phone...per capita income in Mauston is $21k, median is $32k. Just a bit of perspective regarding the information above.

    One other point regarding what teachers make: we all make choices in life in our career path. I'm fairly certain that teachers at any stage of their employment - just out of college or nearing retirement - had some idea what their compensation would be. Looks to me like it's more than fair, especially since we're talking about nine months of work per year.

    Will answer more when not on my phone.
    • Like Like x 2
  15. JBlood
    Offline

    JBlood Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2004
    Messages:
    2,240
    Ratings:
    +785 / 20 / -1
    Yes, competition is good. But if the prevailing wage is $15/hr, who is going to pay more and still stay competitive? And if "free trade" means that the prevailing wage drops to $5/hr, what recourse does the average worker have but to accept it, assuming the idea of collective bargaining is tossed aside?
    The prevailing wage scale limits mobility of workers between jobs. I suppose if there are no jobs, you could say that everyone has the right to become a doctor, lawyer or financier and still do fine. Is that reasonable?

    The point I'm trying to make is that the aim of any successful economy is to provide for the common man. If that isn't accomplished, the economy will crumble.

    Just before the economic collapse in 2008 Steve Forbes claimed that the world's economy was healthy due in large part to the number of new billionaires that had appeared. He was wrong, but Forbes still likes to talk about all the new billionaires that have been made during the world collapse, while country after country are on the brink of credit default--including the United States.

    Market supplies require market demand to balance them. A few billionaires can not possibly buy everything that a consumer economy needs to produce to stay healthy.
  16. Forget Favre
    Offline

    Forget Favre Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2009
    Messages:
    7,271
    Ratings:
    +2,417 / 55 / -16
    I don't really know all that much there is to know about this issue.
    I do think that workers deserve rights and what is coming to them.
    However I have a hunch that a lot of these workers are just blindly following what the unions are telling them to do and not really thinking for themselves.
    And are they really going to be hurting with the proposed changes? Or are they so spoiled and used to the way things are for them?
    Change is never easy, especially when it's something beyond someone's control.
    Maybe it's a natural urge to rebel against change in some cases.

    They wanna protest? Fine. I don't like the governor either, but I'm not going to waste my time against something I don't care about in the first place either.

    And I really don't care about this issue since it isn't one of my battles but I do have an opinion and this is a place to express that.
  17. Lunchboxer
    Offline

    Lunchboxer Guest

    Ratings:
    +76 / 3 / -4
    Sence when this Board be come a Political forum.

    I dont give a **** about Politics.

    All I care about is The Green Bay Packers,Football,Hockey and other stuff.
  18. jkrelt
    Offline

    jkrelt Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2009
    Messages:
    109
    Ratings:
    +13 / 0 / -0
    “I’m teaching the novel ‘1984’ right now where they try to keep the people stupid and out of power,” said Milwaukee high school teacher Katherine Katter. “I don't want to live that here."



    On topic:
    I'm glad Woodson spoke up. He has a voice and he should be able to use it...especially in the off-season. He is speaking on behalf of himself, not the GBP.

    Off topic:
    I'm a 2nd year middle school teacher; not too removed from college at the University of Minnesota with a masters in education...and for good measure, a life long packer fan. Without going into a long story here, I can tell you that I'm not rich, I'm not greedy and I'm not irrational.

    Wisconsin: I encourage you to know your facts. Too much is nationally at stake (in historic proportions) for you guys to take sides without knowing BOTH sides of the story. Simply stated, be informed.
    • Like Like x 3
  19. fettpett
    Offline

    fettpett Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2011
    Messages:
    928
    Location:
    Exile in SW Michigan
    Ratings:
    +217 / 3 / -0
    The teacher obviously didn't read 1984 very well as that is NOT what is going on in WI.

    He's entitled to his opinion as are all the Packers, I would just prefer that they kept their opinion on such matters to themselves at a time like this as there are a lot of emotion on both sides attached to the issue.

    no, but even as an entry level teacher in WI you make more than the median for less time on the job. And main focus is on how greedy and powerful the Teachers Unions are, not individual teachers

    I agree with this. Many on both sides that don't know the info. Though I've seen much more on the left using their Union's talking points instead of doing their research.
    • Like Like x 2
  20. PackCrazed4
    Offline

    PackCrazed4 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    Messages:
    535
    Location:
    Chicago Native on loan to Tallahassee, FL
    Ratings:
    +167 / 1 / -1
    Packer Fan Since:
    1995
    Unless Wisconsin minimum wage drops to $5/hour, which it isn't at, then you'll never have to worry about jobs reaching that pay level. There's a reason it's called competition, in the private sector, all jobs have a value and are paid accordingly.

    The original intent of unions was to protect workers from being taken advantage of by big business or big government at a time where there was absolutely no regulation of business and the workplace. Well, since their ingratiation into society, things like Minimum Wage, Injured Workers' compensation, Child Labor, Paid Vacation, Maternity leave, and a myriad of other job protections have been adopted into the U.S. legal system, therefore, making things like Collective Bargaining slightly obsolete. Regardless of where you work, you're protected, everyone has rights and no one can violate them without a lawsuit.

    It's the matter of whether someone has the RIGHT to 100% paid retirement. All the governor wants is a reduction in that pension plan so that the public's taxes can be put towards relieving debt. Wisconsin is broke, where else can this money be acquired? Taxes are already high, that's out. It's a brutal reality, but something has to be done.
    • Like Like x 3
  21. fettpett
    Offline

    fettpett Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2011
    Messages:
    928
    Location:
    Exile in SW Michigan
    Ratings:
    +217 / 3 / -0
    I think it was Belling or Skyes a few years ago made the comment that it seemed that in WI they look over the tax code see what isn't in the top 10 nationally and make the move to put it there. At the time they were talking about the cigarette tax hike, but it's not surprising that they have that attitude.
    • Like Like x 2
  22. JBlood
    Offline

    JBlood Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2004
    Messages:
    2,240
    Ratings:
    +785 / 20 / -1
    "Wisconsin is broke, where else can this money be acquired?"

    Excellent point. Why are we broke? Maybe it's Wall Street and the handful of banks that control 90+% of the derivatives trading. That's who lost the world's money, and that's who is being paid back by "stimulus" money, which will be paid back by our taxes.

    Wouldn't it make sense to identify the reasons they were allowed to gamble and lose 10 times the GDP of the world, and then be bailed out because they were "too big to fail"?

    After identifying the problems maybe then they could be corrected. That would save a lot more tax money than what the governor is trying to do.

    That's assuming that saving tax money is the most important part of this to him.
  23. PackersPete
    Offline

    PackersPete Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2011
    Messages:
    84
    Location:
    Escondido, CA
    Ratings:
    +27 / 0 / -0
    Why are we broke? Ask the Liberals why we pay so much in taxes and why we're broke. Their answers are AMAZING.
    • Like Like x 1
  24. PackCrazed4
    Offline

    PackCrazed4 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    Messages:
    535
    Location:
    Chicago Native on loan to Tallahassee, FL
    Ratings:
    +167 / 1 / -1
    Packer Fan Since:
    1995
    Like I said before, you're identifying a larger issue that is out of the State's hands. Sure, lets go riot the White House to get Obama to do something, but really, how realistic is that? My only hopes of the National financial situation to be resolved at this point is a new President with a plan of attack. Obama has seemingly exhausted his tactics to get us out of this mess, so 2012 here we come. In the meantime, Walker's trying his best to at least put a band-aid on the situation, or hopefully a nice cast, haha.
    • Like Like x 3
  25. JBlood
    Offline

    JBlood Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2004
    Messages:
    2,240
    Ratings:
    +785 / 20 / -1
    Every state has lost money gambling in interest rate swaps, credit default swaps, etc. just like the federal government. It is the reason we are where we are. It isn't isolated.

    Walker's actions are more like putting a tourniquet on a wound instead of a bandaid. Eventually the limb dies with a tourniquet.

Share This Page