Changing of the guard on the DL

[Deleted member 6794]

I did notice that Capers was reluctant to blitz the backers at times . I think that if Capers blitzed Hawk and whoever the other ilb is going to be along with a safety a few times a game that would help the run defense. Attack the LOS instead of waiting to be engaged.

Could you please explain how blitzing the QB more often on a pass attempt would help the run defense??? In addition, blitzing both ILBs and a safety at the same time would most likely result in a TD more often than not.

 

[TJV]

We have a ton of high draft pick/highly paid DL that, injuries aside, will be spending a lot of time on the sideline if dunderdummy keeps playing nickel, i.e. the 2-4 front, on running downs.

On the DL, we have - Peppers, Raji, Neal, Perry, D.Jones, Daniels, Worthy, Boyd, Thorton, and Guion.

Let's say you cut Guion and Worthy. That leaves you with 8 guys to fill 2 spots.

Peppers will be playing a lot of LB and you say Neal will start at LOLB. Perhaps you want to reconcile that, dunderdummy?

 

[HyponGrey]

So much fail

 

[rodell330]

Could you please explain how blitzing the QB more often on a pass attempt would help the run defense??? In addition, blitzing both ILBs and a safety at the same time would most likely result in
my
a TD more often than not.

No no no ....I'm saying blitz more on run downs man. Like first and second depending on down and distance. I know blitzing that many ppl could result in a TD more often than not that's why I DIDNT say blitz those guys on pass attempts. You just basically put words into mouth haha.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

No no no ....I'm saying blitz more on run downs man. Like first and second depending on down and distance. I know blitzing that many ppl could result in a TD more often than not that's why I DIDNT say blitz those guys on pass attempts. You just basically put words into mouth haha.

Well, it seems like you don't have a clue about the basic concept of blitzing. The term blitz describes a strategy in which a defense rushes an extra LB or DB to pressure the QB on a pass play.

Teams can put extra guys in the box to try to stop the run (which doesn't work that well vs. good QBs or specific formations) but they can't blitz a run.

 

[Poppa San]

Well, it seems like you don't have a clue about the basic concept of blitzing. The term blitz describes a strategy in which a defense rushes an extra LB or DB to pressure the QB on a pass play.

Teams can put extra guys in the box to try to stop the run (which doesn't work that well vs. good QBs or specific formations) but they can't blitz a run.

So the phrase "run blitz" as commonly referred to by commentators refers to what? I always assumed it meant the LBers and/or safeties attacked the LOS at the snap of a suspected running play in an attempt to get a TFL.

 

[wist43]

When I saw you replied to this thread I set the over/under for words until you mentioned "2-4" at 20.5. Unfortunately I picked the under.

Well, refute it then... if dunderdummy plays the 2-4 60-70% of the time.

That adds up to a lot of high draft pick DL standing on the sidelines most of the time doesn't it??

Do you dispute that??

Unless MM got involved enough to get dunderdummy to move away from that disaster of an alignment - not much will change.

 

[SoonerPack]

I am really, REALLY hoping we can bring Jolly back. It sucks that of all things it has to be the neck and we all know the teams M.O. regarding these injuries. There are many reasons I would like love to see the big man back. First, as someone who has battled a few demons (and won!) I love the reclamation project that is JJ. You talk about someone hitting rock bottom and putting in the work to come back better than ever. He's your guy. We have stuck by him through everything and I hate to think that if McKenzie clears him the team would choose to cut ties. He is an impact player and brings a lot of what I love to the locker room. Imagine being a young stud and you see and talk with JJ everyday and get to hear first hand how all of this can be gone in an instant via bad choices. Whether it be a kid like Lyerla or someone you may never suspect to be a "user", I think his impact can't be overstated. Secondly, the guy can still ball. He isn't great at one particular thing but he is a good, solid all around big who can help stuff the run while also applying pressure from time to time. We need all the bigs we can get and with his knowledge of the system and well rounded skill set I would hate to see him not in G and G next season.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

So the phrase "run blitz" as commonly referred to by commentators refers to what? I always assumed it meant the LBers and/or safeties attacked the LOS at the snap of a suspected running play in an attempt to get a TFL.

I don't think I've ever heard the phrase "run blitz". Defenses put extra guys in the box to stop the run depending on down and distance or the quality of an opponent's pass attack, that's known as stacking the box though.

 

[mradtke66]

Well, refute it then... if dunderdummy plays the 2-4 60-70% of the time.

That adds up to a lot of high draft pick DL standing on the sidelines most of the time doesn't it??

Do you dispute that??

If those high draft picks are primary run run stuffers, which they are, why would you want them on the field in a set designed to stop the pass and rush the passer?

 

[wist43]

Against power running teams, dunderdummy has finally figured out that he has to play a 3-4 base - and as witnessed in the SF playoff game, the results were much better.

Everyone has a gap... do your job, and you'll bottle up the running game for the most part. Where you get into trouble is when someone tries to do too much and jumps out his gap - Barnett used to do that all the time.

Given that our first 2 games are against power running teams, Seattle and NYJ, I expect dunderdummy will actually come out and play a 3-4 base, and I would expect we'd realize pretty good results in those games. After those 2 games though, who knows what he'll do.

As for trying to stop the running game with only 2 DL on the field - that's simply asking too much of those guys. Especially when you consider that we have below average ILBs.

 

[mradtke66]

I don't think I've ever heard the phrase "run blitz". Defenses put extra guys in the box to stop the run depending on down and distance or the quality of an opponent's pass attack, that's known as stacking the box though.

It's a relatively common tactic, though it still can create running lanes like a standard pass-blitz.

So what is a run blitz? Just what it sounds like: blitzing a player to stop a running play.

How does it work? It can be as complicated as any scheme question, but at a high level, you're trying to deny a running lane that your opponent likes to use. Instead of aiming for the quarterback at the top of his drop, you instead aim for where the handoff is going to occur or to blow up the fullback 2 yards deep in the backfield. Now you've hopefully disrupted the play, forcing the running back to improvise, leave his blockers, etc.

We had this concept in our high school defensive playbook. We had a rival with a stud running back--and nothing else. In game planning that week, any blitz calls were modified to be "blitz at 22." Quite specifically, we just want to beat on their running back, the rest of their team can't hurt us.

 

[wist43]

If those high draft picks are primary run run stuffers, which they are, why would you want them on the field in a set designed to stop the pass and rush the passer?

That's just it, we've been playing the 2-4 on 1st and 10, 2nd and 6, 3rd and 4, etc.

Add to that, if you're in the nickel to primarily defend against the pass - having 2 fat guys on the interior DL, who aren't pass rushers, and you're only going to send 4 anyway - you're really only sending 2, b/c as pass rushers those guys are dancing bears.

Me?? I don't want those guys on the field in passing situations - it is Capers who has them out there. I want to rotate guys in a 3-4 base on run downs, and a 3-3 nickel that maximizes the talent we have on the DL. Capers doens't do that.

Capers plays more 2-4 than any DC in the league - by far; it's not even close; yet, Packernation mindlessly defends it b/c he wears Green and Gold - then they ***** about the results, and blame the players. I don't blame the players - I blame Capers for not putting the players in positions to be successful.

Since MM got involved this past offseason, I actually think we'll see more 3-3.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

It's a relatively common tactic, though it still can create running lanes like a standard pass-blitz.

So what is a run blitz? Just what it sounds like: blitzing a player to stop a running play.

How does it work? It can be as complicated as any scheme question, but at a high level, you're trying to deny a running lane that your opponent likes to use. Instead of aiming for the quarterback at the top of his drop, you instead aim for where the handoff is going to occur or to blow up the fullback 2 yards deep in the backfield. Now you've hopefully disrupted the play, forcing the running back to improvise, leave his blockers, etc.

We had this concept in our high school defensive playbook. We had a rival with a stud running back--and nothing else. In game planning that week, any blitz calls were modified to be "blitz at 22." Quite specifically, we just want to beat on their running back, the rest of their team can't hurt us.

Correct me if I´m wrong, but isn´t that more or less the same strategy as putting another man or two in the box to stop the run???

 

[HyponGrey]

Well, refute it then... if dunderdummy plays the 2-4 60-70% of the time.

That adds up to a lot of high draft pick DL standing on the sidelines most of the time doesn't it??

Do you dispute that??

Unless MM got involved enough to get dunderdummy to move away from that disaster of an alignment - not much will change.

Yes, I dispute that. Name a high draft pick besides Raji who starts in base. Name one of them you'd take low rounder Mike Daniels off the field for in 2-4. Most of our high DL picks are better suited to 2-4, because that pass rush premium is why they were drafted high.

If those high draft picks are primary run run stuffers, which they are, why would you want them on the field in a set designed to stop the pass and rush the passer?

Datone Jones, Jerel Worthy, Mike Neal. Which of those is a run stuffer again? Because I remember all three of them being a sieve.

Against power running teams, dunderdummy has finally figured out that he has to play a 3-4 base - and as witnessed in the SF playoff game, the results were much better.

Everyone has a gap... do your job, and you'll bottle up the running game for the most part. Where you get into trouble is when someone tries to do too much and jumps out his gap - Barnett used to do that all the time.

Given that our first 2 games are against power running teams, Seattle and NYJ, I expect dunderdummy will actually come out and play a 3-4 base, and I would expect we'd realize pretty good results in those games. After those 2 games though, who knows what he'll do.

As for trying to stop the running game with only 2 DL on the field - that's simply asking too much of those guys. Especially when you consider that we have below average ILBs.

This has been our biggest problem, and it has nothing to do with dunderdummy. You said it yourself, Walden ignored contain. Dom's biggest failure has been the lack of discipline we play with, and part of that is he's willing to sacrifice discipline for turnovers. When that works, you're a genius, when it doesn't, you're an idiot. Also remember that the OLB who play the part of 4-3 ends in 2-4 can be counted as DL, and that even 4-3 teams use off the ball LB to play the run. Considering the "primary" defense for most teams in the nfl is 4-2 or 2-4 (the same exact defense btw) your argument is kind of naive.

That's just it, we've been playing the 2-4 on 1st and 10, 2nd and 6, 3rd and 4, etc.

Add to that, if you're in the nickel to primarily defend against the pass - having 2 fat guys on the interior DL, who aren't pass rushers, and you're only going to send 4 anyway - you're really only sending 2, b/c as pass rushers those guys are dancing bears.

Me?? I don't want those guys on the field in passing situations - it is Capers who has them out there. I want to rotate guys in a 3-4 base on run downs, and a 3-3 nickel that maximizes the talent we have on the DL. Capers doens't do that.

Capers plays more 2-4 than any DC in the league - by far; it's not even close; yet, Packernation mindlessly defends it b/c he wears Green and Gold - then they ***** about the results, and blame the players. I don't blame the players - I blame Capers for not putting the players in positions to be successful.

Since MM got involved this past offseason, I actually think we'll see more 3-3.

Wrong. 4-2 is 2-4. So Capers doesn't employ Nickel more than everyone. He doesn even employ 2-4 the most, IIRC that would be the Texans.

Bold prediction: We play more 1-5 than 3-3.

 

[HyponGrey]

Correct me if I´m wrong, but isn´t that more or less the same strategy as putting another man or two in the box to stop the run???

It's a gap control blitz where you send extra guys into the gaps or the edge. We did it a few times the first time we got beat by the 49ers in the playoffs and it bit us in the tuchus. Hard. because we didn't contain, and nobody was there at the second level.

 

[TJV]

What do you call a poster who posts the same thing over and over while ignoring all explanations/arguments that the 2-4-5 is very similar to the 4-2-5? What do you call a poster who continually ignores the injuries which prevented the Packers from using different formations last season? What do you call a poster who ignores the fact Capers used a lot of 2-4-5 and even the psycho formation (1 DL) during the 2010 season? What do you call a poster who ignores the difference from then until now (Collins, Woodson, & Jenkins absence)? How about his term: dunderdummy.

 

[HyponGrey]

What do you call a poster who posts the same thing over and over while ignoring all explanations/arguments that the 2-4-5 is very similar to the 4-2-5? What do you call a poster who continually ignores the injuries which prevented the Packers from using different formations last season? What do you call a poster who ignores the fact Capers used a lot of 2-4-5 and even the psycho formation (1 DL) during the 2010 season? What do you call a poster who ignores the difference from then until now (Collins, Woodson, & Jenkins absence)? How about his term: dunderdummy.

Lets not forget that he's suggesting 3-3, which is essentially 1-5. Conclusion: Somebody plays too much Madden.

 

[HyponGrey]

Who doesn't like a sack on 1st down? Besides, if you run 3-4 Base on 1st down, the offense can run hurry up put you at a disadvantage. Try to remember the NFL is a game of matching formations. You don't run 3-4 against 5 wide, and 2-4 is preferable against the 3 wr sets that have become more and more the base offense for the NFL.

 

[rodell330]

So the phrase "run blitz" as commonly referred to by commentators refers to what? I always assumed it meant the LBers and/or safeties attacked the LOS at the snap of a suspected running play in an attempt to get a TFL.

Thank you . Stole the words right out of my mouth. Guess he's never heard the term run blitz.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Correct me if I´m wrong, but isn´t that more or less the same strategy as putting another man or two in the box to stop the run???

With a blitz you're asking non d-linemen to attack the LoS at the snap; putting more guys in the box isn't as aggressive, it just means that the defensive players are closer to the line, not they will necessarily "blitz" the line.

 

[wist43]

Yes, I dispute that. Name a high draft pick besides Raji who starts in base. Name one of them you'd take low rounder Mike Daniels off the field for in 2-4. Most of our high DL picks are better suited to 2-4, because that pass rush premium is why they were drafted high.

As I've been saying, I wouldn't be in the 2-4 to begin with. The 2-4 is our biggest problem on defense... well, that and the mess in our secondary.

Also remember that the OLB who play the part of 4-3 ends in 2-4 can be counted as DL, and that even 4-3 teams use off the ball LB to play the run. Considering the "primary" defense for most teams in the nfl is 4-2 or 2-4 (the same exact defense btw) your argument is kind of naive.

Oy vey, lol... 2-4 and 4-2 are nickel subpackages. Most teams use them as subpackages - dunderdummy uses the 2-4 as his base as often as not - hence the problem with stopping the run. He only has 6 guys in the box most of the time.

In playing the 2-4 in base down/distance situations, dunderdummy's logic is that he wants to have the extra DB on the field - okay, fine; the problem is, he has to account for the run as well, so he plays run stuffing fat guys - usually Raji and Pickett, at DT. When he does that, he kills any pass rush up the middle, AND he's in a losing position against the run b/c he only has 2 defensive linemen on the field defending the run.

Our ILB's are the very definition of pedestrian, so we end up being very, very weak up the middle - yet, dunderdummy does this down after down, game after game.

Wrong. 4-2 is 2-4. So Capers doesn't employ Nickel more than everyone. He doesn even employ 2-4 the most, IIRC that would be the Texans.

Bold prediction: We play more 1-5 than 3-3.

The 4-2 and 2-4 are not the same thing, good grief... the 4-2 has 4 defensive linemen, the 2-4 has 2.

A team will be much smaller running a 2-4 vs a 4-2... I wouldn't think I'd need to explain that, but I guess I do.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

If dunderdummy were doing his job, we wouldn't be putting up pathetic numbers over the past 3 years, and McCarthy wouldn't have to be getting involved on the defensive side of the ball this offseason. It is the putrid results that Capers has been producing that have forced MM to focus his attention on that side of the ball.

 

[wist43]

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Jeepers... somebody better hurry over and tell the Seahawks they're doing it wrong!!!

 

[mradtke66]

In playing the 2-4 in base down/distance situations, dunderdummy's logic is that he wants to have the extra DB on the field - okay, fine;

You're just being silly. Capers doesn't want an extra DB "just because," he's doing it to match personnel. If the offense comes out 3WR and you DON'T counter with 3CB most of the time, you will lose. Horribly.

The only times that Capers regularly matches nickel vs. base offense if it's 3rd and long (but that grouping is odd in the modern game) or if we're playing a team with a great receiving tight end that requires a CB to stop.

Which brings up the next point. It's okay to have 6 in the box against a 3WR set because the offense gave up a blocker.

Similarly, calling 2-1-2 offenses and 4-3/3-4 defenses base is going to stop being the norm. If offenses are 3-1-1 most of the time, THAT will become base. Similarly, nickel will become base defense.

Our ILB's are the very definition of pedestrian, so we end up being very, very weak up the middle - yet, dunderdummy does this down after down, game after game.

Because again, for all their short comings, our ILBs are the best on our roster at doing their assigned task.

The 4-2 and 2-4 are not the same thing, good grief... the 4-2 has 4 defensive linemen, the 2-4 has 2.

A team will be much smaller running a 2-4 vs a 4-2... I wouldn't think I'd need to explain that, but I guess I do.

No. Absolutely not. This is the part where you are completely wrong.

Ignore what the roster says and look at their alignment and responsibilities. Our OLBs are ends when we play nickel. They just happen to be standing up. Call nickel ends and nickel OLBs what they are: Edge Rushers. That is their position.

It is customary put lighter, better rushers at end in a 4-2 nickel. Denver, for example, puts Von Miller at end in nickel situations. He weighs 250 pounds. Presumably, DeMarcus Ware will be the other edge rusher. He's 258. Going back a season, Dumervil is 260.

CM3 weighs 255. Perry is 265. Guess what, we're heavier! Swap in Neal and/or Peppers and we're WAY heavier. Our combined weight at "edge rusher" is 520 pounds.

Vikings (Robbinson and Griffen): 532; 12 pounds heavier (Oh nos!)
Broncos: 518 pounds; 2 pounds lighter (Oh nos!)

 

[wist43]

You're just being silly. Capers doesn't want an extra DB "just because," he's doing it to match personnel. If the offense comes out 3WR and you DON'T counter with 3CB most of the time, you will lose. Horribly.

The only times that Capers regularly matches nickel vs. base offense if it's 3rd and long (but that grouping is odd in the modern game) or if we're playing a team with a great receiving tight end that requires a CB to stop.

Which brings up the next point. It's okay to have 6 in the box against a 3WR set because the offense gave up a blocker.

Similarly, calling 2-1-2 offenses and 4-3/3-4 defenses base is going to stop being the norm. If offenses are 3-1-1 most of the time, THAT will become base. Similarly, nickel will become base defense.



Because again, for all their short comings, our ILBs are the best on our roster at doing their assigned task.



No. Absolutely not. This is the part where you are completely wrong.

Ignore what the roster says and look at their alignment and responsibilities. Our OLBs are ends when we play nickel. They just happen to be standing up. Call nickel ends and nickel OLBs what they are: Edge Rushers. That is their position.

It is customary put lighter, better rushers at end in a 4-2 nickel. Denver, for example, puts Von Miller at end in nickel situations. He weighs 250 pounds. Presumably, DeMarcus Ware will be the other edge rusher. He's 258. Going back a season, Dumervil is 260.

CM3 weighs 255. Perry is 265. Guess what, we're heavier! Swap in Neal and/or Peppers and we're WAY heavier. Our combined weight at "edge rusher" is 520 pounds.

Vikings (Robbinson and Griffen): 532; 12 pounds heavier (Oh nos!)
Broncos: 518 pounds; 2 pounds lighter (Oh nos!)

Of course you have to match up against their personnel; and to be sure, with teams playing more and more and more 3 WR sets on 1st and 10, it makes sense to play nickel against that - but here's the big BUT when it comes to Green Bay...

1) Our ILB's are terrible
2) All of our high draft picks on the defensive line need to be put to use
3) Playing the 2-4 the way Capers does/or did, he is wasting talent on the sideline, offering no pass rush up the middle, and leaving the middle of the defense disturbingly vulnerable.

All of those things have been on display for quite some time with Capers.

Instead of playing the 2-4 and having Perry, D. Jones, and Daniels on the sideline; I'd take either Hawk or B.Jones out, and put one of those pass rushers on the line, or standing up roving - like Baltimore does; play zone behind that - like Seattle does; and mix up the blitz and zone blitz according to matchups.

We can't play the 2-4 the way we have been for the reasons listed above. If we had SF's personnel?? sure - but they are lightyears more talented than we are. Given the personnel TT has brought in, i.e. concentrating on the DL and not LB's, it only makes sense to put that talent to use.

My preference would have been to upgrade our LB's, and then the 2-4 probably works much better for us, but as it is, having Brad Jones and AJ Hawk on the field 24/7 at the expense of more talented players like Daniels, D. Jones, Perry, or Neal simply doesn't make any sense.

We've been fielding one of the worst defenses in the league for the past 3 years - you can't deny that. So why do incessantly try to defend it?? If it ain't Capers and the scheme, then it's the players and TT has done a terrible job of player acquisition. It's one or the other...

Injuries only go so far explaining the dismal results.