Were are the Manning haters?

[Clay's Jock Strap]

Originally Posted by AllouezPackerFan

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree buddy.

okay, pal.

[AllouezPackerFan]

Originally Posted by Clay's Jock Strap

okay, pal.

Couldn't agree with you more about Bart Starr though. Greatest post-season quarterback of all time. Greatest Packer qb of all time, which is saying a lot when you consider the history of our team. Most importantly, he was loyal....he never would have gone to play for the Vikings or Bears.

[PackersRS]

98% of the picks are bad throws. I'm excluding the ones that hit the wr, that are catchable balls, and then the wr let's it go up in the air and some defender picks it.

In Manning's throw, the slot receiver was a much better option than the wide. Also, Porter was clearly baiting him to throw there; If he'd at least looked where he was throwing to, he would've seen that, and not have thrown to him. Yeah, yeah, easier said than done.

But there wasn't much Manning could've done, besides throwing to the slot receiver. It was 3rd and 5, they were behind, in their field, with Brees playing lights out, little time...

Different from Favre. If he throws the ball away, the still got a chance to win. If he runs (though I don't think the run was a really good option) or if he passes to Shiancoe...

PS.: Rewatching the play, Manning had better protection than he thought (Mannings OL is THE best in the league in pass pro. It's not him throwing the ball fast, it's them protecting. Go and watch the tape). And Sharper bit the in route of the slot, but wasn't covering him. A pump fake, or at least holding the ball a little more, and Clark had beaten his man, and was wide open for the TD.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-networ...-Porter-s-pick

2 mins into the vid and you'll probably see it too.

[Jess]

A pump fake at Wayne and Porter jumps the route, allowing Wayne to see that and break deep for the easiest touchdown of his career.

[Raptorman]

Originally Posted by PackersRS

How much of the D had to do with the "best SB rating", "third best postseason rating" or the "3 time SB MVP"???

I would say that by having 4 turnovers and making Denver have 3 and outs, putting the ball back in Montana's hands had a lot to do with his ability to to have 5td passes. Don't get me wrong, I think he was a good QB. But when you look at how well a QB does in games like that you have to look at what allowed him to do it in the first place. Figure two of his TD's came after interceptions in Denver's territory, one at the 28 resulting in a 28 yard td pass and another on the 37 resulting in a 35 yards td two plays later. 3 of his TD's came as a result of Denver turnovers. Granted, he had to make the plays, but without the turnovers he would have never had the chance.

[Clay's Jock Strap]

Originally Posted by Raptorman

I Granted, he had to make the plays, but without the turnovers he would have never had the chance.

Be he made them - again and again and again.

Listen, I'm not saying he was the best QB ever but he was certainly in that elite group for legitimate discussion of best ever. No amount of trying to spin away his accomplishments can ever change that. I'd put him in my top 5. Again, I don't know if it is even possible to determine the best ever at any position. It is simply too difficult to sort through all of the variables like how good the supporting cast was, eras and changes to/evolution of the game (artificial via rules changes vs natural evolution) and simple personal preference. There is no magic formula to plug into that will spit out a definitive answer. But people who want to make an argument for Montana at the top have a real strong case. He's not my choice but again, it all opinion (hopefully backed up by a lot of facts) and I'd have a really hard time not having him in my all time top 5.

So many great ones though... Unitas, Montana, Starr, Elway, Favre, Graham, Marino, Bradshaw, Manning, Brady, Young...

Personally, my top 5 would be Johnny U, Montana, Starr, Brady and Manning... But that is just me.

[PackersRS]

Originally Posted by Raptorman

I would say that by having 4 turnovers and making Denver have 3 and outs, putting the ball back in Montana's hands had a lot to do with his ability to to have 5td passes. Don't get me wrong, I think he was a good QB. But when you look at how well a QB does in games like that you have to look at what allowed him to do it in the first place. Figure two of his TD's came after interceptions in Denver's territory, one at the 28 resulting in a 28 yard td pass and another on the 37 resulting in a 35 yards td two plays later. 3 of his TD's came as a result of Denver turnovers. Granted, he had to make the plays, but without the turnovers he would have never had the chance.

Originally Posted by Clay's Jock Strap

Be he made them - again and again and again.

Listen, I'm not saying he was the best QB ever but he was certainly in that elite group for legitimate discussion of best ever. No amount of trying to spin away his accomplishments can ever change that. I'd put him in my top 5. Again, I don't know if it is even possible to determine the best ever at any position. It is simply too difficult to sort through all of the variables like how good the supporting cast was, eras and changes to/evolution of the game (artificial via rules changes vs natural evolution) and simple personal preference. There is no magic formula to plug into that will spit out a definitive answer. But people who want to make an argument for Montana at the top have a real strong case. He's not my choice but again, it all opinion (hopefully backed up by a lot of facts) and I'd have a really hard time not having him in my all time top 5.

So many great ones though... Unitas, Montana, Starr, Elway, Favre, Graham, Marino, Bradshaw, Manning, Brady, Young...

Personally, my top 5 would be Johnny U, Montana, Starr, Brady and Manning... But that is just me.

Not to mention Raptorman is citing 1 of his SBs. He had 4 of them, and in each he had an amazing game.

We all agree that with a mediocre team, he wouldn't have gotten 4 SBs.

But without him, they don't win any of those. (Don't give me the Young argument, because Young is also a HOF QB.)

4 SBs, with the way he played, no, that's not the defense.

[AllouezPackerFan]

Originally Posted by Clay's Jock Strap

Be he made them - again and again and again.

Listen, I'm not saying he was the best QB ever but he was certainly in that elite group for legitimate discussion of best ever. No amount of trying to spin away his accomplishments can ever change that. I'd put him in my top 5. Again, I don't know if it is even possible to determine the best ever at any position. It is simply too difficult to sort through all of the variables like how good the supporting cast was, eras and changes to/evolution of the game (artificial via rules changes vs natural evolution) and simple personal preference. There is no magic formula to plug into that will spit out a definitive answer. But people who want to make an argument for Montana at the top have a real strong case. He's not my choice but again, it all opinion (hopefully backed up by a lot of facts) and I'd have a really hard time not having him in my all time top 5.

So many great ones though... Unitas, Montana, Starr, Elway, Favre, Graham, Marino, Bradshaw, Manning, Brady, Young...

Personally, my top 5 would be Johnny U, Montana, Starr, Brady and Manning... But that is just me.

I would agree with that top 5. Arguments can be made for others, but that is a fair assessment.

[PackersRS]

I just can't see any top 5 without a guy that was 9 times all pro, 1 time MVP, and most importantly, won 7 championships in 10 years. I would put Graham in there.

I also disagree with Alex Talisch of Packerslounge.com, that you can only argue about a player you have seen. That way in 50 years you'd have to automatically exclude Starr out of the best of all time consideration, because none alive would've seen him.

There's enough statistics and video evidence to make a case for almost anyone that played the game.

[AllouezPackerFan]

Originally Posted by PackersRS

I just can't see any top 5 without a guy that was 9 times all pro, 1 time MVP, and most importantly, won 7 championships in 10 years. I would put Graham in there.

I also disagree with Alex Talisch of Packerslounge.com, that you can only argue about a player you have seen. That way in 50 years you'd have to automatically exclude Starr out of the best of all time consideration, because none alive would've seen him.

There's enough statistics and video evidence to make a case for almost anyone that played the game.

Yeah, there is no basis for that "only considering players you've seen argument." That's nonsense. I never saw Bart Starr play, but I know he's one of the best. Being born a year after Montana, Elway, or Marino retired can't exclude you from being able to make arguments for them.